Care home standards

[stevew]

From surprise to shock.
The original (green) guide to fire safety standards in existing care premises used in the 1980's accepted situations where residents bedroom doors did not need a self-closing device.
By the early 1990's this standard was revised requiring the fitting of self-closers.

Some eight years ago I was surprised when I assessed a care premises under the RRO where residents bedroom doors were NOT fitted with a self-closing device.
Yesterday I was shocked when I assessed a care home where such doors were again NOT fitted with such devices. This after several 'in house' assessments/audits and three FA audits.

A rare find or not?

[kurnal]

I think that the protected area concept, without self closers was fairly common in purpose built care homes up until the 2005 RRO and of course Rosepark. The original concept was of course that vulnerable persons should face the minimum of obstacles to free movement between bedrooms and toilets within the zone.

[Mr. P]

You will probably find that the 'legislative' guidance is not retrospective. So, your dilemma is, when were the premises built or turned into that use. Did they meet/comply at the time? That said, if the premises have had significant changes since, i.e. extensions or major refurbishment, they shuold have been brought up to standard then which was applicable.

[stevew]

I can only assume that my fire authority employer at the time took it upon themselves to follow the amended guidance and insist upon self-closers in all care and nursing premises retrospectively.  This meant that owners were familiar with the concept some 10-15 years prior to the introduction of the RRO and its guides.

No dilemma, I consider the provision of self-closing devices in such circumstances as non-negotiable.
This would not be on the agenda in 2016 if the initial RA of the premises in 2006 had identified the need for such devices.
Perhaps the owner could have even afforded to fit appropriate hold-open devices to the doors on a priority based rolling programme.

I do remember the protected area concept.  I also remember that AFD was not required in single rooms.

[kurnal]

I can only assume that my fire authority employer at the time took it upon themselves to follow the amended guidance and insist upon self-closers in all care and nursing premises. .......

Yes under the old legislation administered by the Social Services of the County / City councils and nursing homes administered by the health authority each brigade agreed standards with the enforcing authority, I was the responsible officer in our brigade for a few years. All changed with the Care Standards Act 2000 when for us standards became less prescriptive and service level agreements were negotiated with the care Standards Commission and dovetailed in with the workplace regs. These brought in more focus on evacuation procedures if only for the safety of staff rather than the welfare of service users.......

I do remember the protected area concept.  I also remember that AFD was not required in single rooms.

Crikey yes I had forgotten about the AFD, I know it was something we had addressed in our local technical standards agreement with Social Services. I guess there must have been a tragedy related trigger for this but cant remember what this was.

[Dinnertime Dave]

You will probably find that the 'legislative' guidance is not retrospective. So, your dilemma is, when were the premises built or turned into that use. Did they meet/comply at the time? That said, if the premises have had significant changes since, i.e. extensions or major refurbishment, they shuold have been brought up to standard then which was applicable.

I suggest there is only one answer. They need to be installed.

[GB]

ADB states where sprinklers are provided within care homes - self closing devices on bedroom doors are not required.

HTM 05-02 2015 for say dementia units etc - no self closing devices required but management policy to manually close doors at night which is without the presence of sprinklers.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Sorry I should have been more precise, typed my original reply on phone standing on the train - No excuse.

The OP doesn't mention sprinklers. The senario as described requires OH closers. The situation in HTM without looking will normally have high staff ratios and require that the nursing station has full vision of the corridor. Similair to high security mental health premises.

[colin todd]

Suppers, as always you were right first time- closers required end of story.  What I cant understand is how there was standing room only in the first class section of a train.  Please tell me you were not travelling with the great unwashed in the second class section.

Big Al, on a point of accuracy Rosepark was not really built on the protected area concept of the Green Guide. Doors were originally fitted with concealed jamb self-closing devices (Perkos or equivalent).  Moreover, an officer of Strathclyde Fire and Rescue Service (c.f. Lothian and Borders Fire and Rescue Service but less posh, though much more posh than London Fire Brigade) insisted on changing them to overhead self closers. Such was his belief that these were necessary (long ahead of any requirement in England) that he went back to the premises before they opened and checked every single door, probably going home thereafter to enjoy a wee dram rightly content with the excellent job he had done on that day.

[GB]

DD whilst I agree that in my opinion self closing devices are correct in the OP - HTM does not require with for example a Dementia wing, for self closers to be provided in a layout only where staff can see the corridors or high staff ratios. In fact the staff ratios are 1 on at night as long as no more than 5 in a compartment. Sprinklers are specifically not requested either.

If you look at HTM 05-02 2015 page 44 Table 6 it provides a nice wee colour coded table to highlight no self closing devices required for occupant bedrooms.

Again not saying I agree - just that it is there in a 2015 document which doesn't require high staffing ratios; sprinklers nor the sight of bedroom doors by staff.

[kurnal]

Readers may find the attached Nashics summary of the Rosepark fatal accident enquiry of interest as a reminder, as Colin points out self closers were fitted but most had been disconnected.

http://www.nashics.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/rosepark-document.pdf

Another outcome of the fatal accident enquiry was a most comprehensive audit procedure used by the Scottish Fire Service- I wonder if it remains in use. It appears to me that the English fire services are using the the one size fits all CFOA audit form but I very much hope to be corrected.

[Tom Sutton]

I apologize for being a little off thread but who is the enforcing authority for fire safety say in a care home upper floor nursing ground floor residential?  

Back to the thread https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8078/Determination_in_respect_of_the_use_of_self-closing.pdf

[kurnal]

The fire service has sole responsibility for the enforcement of fire Safety throughout all areas under the fire safety legislation Tom.
In your example whilst the Care Standards Act covers fire safety in a broad way in terms of the Care Standard for Health and Safety this is only a cross reference to ensure that the operator is meeting their duties under the Order, in a risk assessment is in place, staff are trained and and an emergency plan in place.

[Fishy]

The fire service has sole responsibility for the enforcement of fire Safety throughout all areas under the fire safety legislation Tom.

Pedantry warning: In England the HSE enforce the FSO for stand-alone construction sites (fire authority have jurisdiction when the construction works are within an occupied building, though).

[wee brian]

Pedantic comment on pedantry warning. Kurnal said all areas, not all premises. I think he's saying that the fire service is enforcer in care homes in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. which I think is true.

Back in the day, when we didnt have hold open and swee swing devices (or they were tooooo expensive) then the solution was to do without in care homes. Now that they are readilly available then it makes sense to use them., There's something in the order about using new technology to mitigate risks.....