Author Topic: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing  (Read 37757 times)

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2016, 08:06:11 PM »
Sorry Tom I don't understand your point.

Going back to topic 6999.0
"Addressable fire detection and fire alarm systems are recommended for sheltered housing in which detectors within dwellings are connected to the fire alarm system in the common parts."

I think this means that IF detectors in dwellings are connected to the fire alarm system in the common parts, then that system to which they are connected should be addressable.

Generally in sheltered housing the domestic accommodation should be in a seperate compartment from any ancillary accommodation such as communal kitchens and lounges. Whilst the ancillary accommodation  may need its own fire alarm system, if the compartmentation is as it should be then there should be no need to alert residents in the event of its operation, a stay put policy will be in place. Corridors and staircases will be maintained sterile to support the stay put.  But if there are weaknesses in design, layout or compartmentation then a stay put may not be ideal in all circumstances. If for example the fire separation between dwellings is a cavity barrier rather than a compartment wall then for a confirmed fire  an evacuation may be considered ( as a poor alternative) with an addressable fire alarm covering the communal areas and escape routes. To avoid unwanted alarms from burnt toast, and to cover periods when dwellings are unoccupied,  the communal fire alarm system covering the escape  system may incorporate a heat detector in the lobby of each dwelling. This does not replace the part 6 system covering the dwelling, which in many cases will also be connected via a tunstall or similar intercom to a call centre.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2016, 08:29:53 PM »
Kurnal I think it is the concept that suppers stated that Colin does not accept "heat detector in hall linked to main system" see http://www.crisis-response.com/forum/index.php?topic=6999.0 check out reply 3. What I find difficult to understand what happens if a fire starts in the common areas?

Tom, I did say smoke (or heat) but I have just spent an hour reading various documents and acknowledge that none of them use my solution. Strangely I was taught the right way years ago and have changed direction presumably through custom & practice.

The fire in the common area is dealt with by the communal system linked to the ARC. No sounders needed in the flats as there is a stay put.

Colin, whilst I am happy to take up your very kind offer, I can also wait for the guide to be published if it will be explained in words an ex IO can understand. When does it get published?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:39:10 PM by Dinnertime Dave »

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2016, 09:40:06 PM »
Yes I think you are right over the stay put for sheltered housing Dave in hindsight, even in the event of the scenario I described in my earlier post. But there does need to be an ARC and there does need to be a response. As a fire brigade officer I recollect many times turning up to fires and alarms  in sheltered housing in which  communal alarms were sounding and all occupiers standing in their doorways but not moving in, out or shaking it all about.

We must recognise that there are some very substandard premises though, no fire doors, extended travel distances, non sterile staircases with bin stores leading off, multi storey buildings with dwellings on the upper levels and communal accommodation on the lower level with little or no separation.

I will leave my previous post in place though  to give Colin something to carp about ;)

Offline Dinnertime Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2016, 10:29:49 PM »
Yes I think you are right over the stay put for sheltered housing Dave in hindsight, even in the event of the scenario I described in my earlier post. But there does need to be an ARC and there does need to be a response. As a fire brigade officer I recollect many times turning up to fires and alarms  in sheltered housing in which  communal alarms were sounding and all occupiers standing in their doorways but not moving in, out or shaking it all about.

We must recognise that there are some very substandard premises though, no fire doors, extended travel distances, non sterile staircases with bin stores leading off, multi storey buildings with dwellings on the upper levels and communal accommodation on the lower level with little or no separation.

I will leave my previous post in place though  to give Colin something to carp about ;)

I have also been to a number of fires in schemes, unfortunately some fatal, others on post fire inspections where a number of residents have suffered smoke inhalation for not staying put and coming out for a look.

Standards vary, but to find the real problems you have to dig beneath the surface or above the ceiling.

The case studies in the flats guide are excellent and hopefully the new guide will contain a few case studies around alarms and lack of compartmentation in loft spaces. It needs to be easy read, like the flats guide. Not for me obviously  ;D because before this post I thought I understood.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2016, 07:56:24 AM »
So here's a question - bearing in mind the known response of occupiers,  how sub standard does a sheltered housing scheme have to be  before the stay put strategy is abandoned in favour of an evacuation strategy? Or is this never a solution?

 What advice should the new guidance give to fire risk assessors on encountering the many thousands of schemes out there with full communal alarms and instructions to evacuate?

 If the premises are satisfactory in other respects should sounders on an existing alarm be removed?

If premises are substandard is an audible alarm a suitable additional risk control measure?

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2016, 11:55:37 AM »
for any more than one or two residents, its never a solution

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2016, 02:16:57 PM »
That may be so wee b but in these days of housing shortages and financial constraint we fire risk assessors would be castigated if we started recommending that premises were no longer fit for purpose

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2016, 04:23:01 PM »
Sorry Tom I don't understand your point.

Kurnal I will try to explain it better. Colin reply 3 in topic 6999.0 says " Most modern sheltered housing does not have detectors in dwellings connected to the communal system, they have smoke alarms connected to the social alarm system" this contradicts what Dave was saying and would apply to most situations (Colin's words). If I read it correctly this means social alarm system forms part of the fire alarm system?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2016, 04:32:00 PM »
Sorry Tom I don't understand your point.

Kurnal I will try to explain it better. Colin reply 3 in topic 6999.0 says " Most modern sheltered housing does not have detectors in dwellings connected to the communal system, they have smoke alarms connected to the social alarm system" this contradicts what Dave was saying and would apply to most situations (Colin's words). If I read it correctly this means social alarm system forms part of the fire alarm system?

I agree Tom, having read it a number of times and in different guides.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2016, 04:54:25 PM »
Sorry to respond with a series of additional observations Tom but here goes:

The dwelling comprises domestic premises and therefore outside the scope of the Order?

The dwelling incorporates a part 6 alarm for the benefit of the resident only?

Connection of the part 6 alarm to the ARC is only via a social intercom that gives no priority for fire alarms over social interactions and this has been a significant factor in at least one fatality?

The standard referred to in our earlier posting gives some cognisance to the fact that sometimes detectors in flats are connected to a communal alarm without seeking to offer guidance on the circumstances when this might be appropriate- this of course would be as a result of a risk assessment. Current guidance is similarly lacking but custom and practice has led to this being more common than we might desire.

Hopefully this issue will be covered in the new guidance.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2016, 08:20:54 PM »
Kurnal all I was doing was trying to understand why Colin disagreed with Dave to his posting. I do not necessarily agree fully with Colin views, because there must be situations where AFD is required in the common areas and hopefully this will be covered in the new guidance.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2016, 10:43:34 PM »
Thanks Tom.

Sorry for being tedious,  I am just trying to prompt discussion all round the subject to give Colin a bit of a shopping list of concerns and issues that should be covered in the new guidance
(whether he needs it or not) ;)

Tom raises a very valid point in respect of fires in communal areas and in response to Dave
Colin Todd said he did not have time to set out the background to the current position on sheltered housing, whereas I am currently stuck in  hospital on chemo and so have all the time in the world to try and bring this together. Please therefore indulge me in this long posting which  I hope is reasonably accurate.

Probably the best guidance currently available is contained in Colin Todds book   "The design, installation, commissioning and maintenance of fire alarm and detection systems in domestic premises" And in particular chapter 10 - Sheltered Housing which has been widely referenced in structuring this posting. I have added many observations of my own and hope done the subject justice this time.

The nature of sheltered housing has changed radically during the life of current housing stock, the working time directive having put paid to live in wardens and these have been replaced by scheme managers who give at best limited cover.

Much sheltered housing incorporates communal lounges, kitchens, laundry facilities and it is appropriate that such areas are provided with a fire alarm (and detection) system. Many of these facilities are available for wider community use by persons outside the scheme and for rental by the public.

The nature of service users has become much more varied, schemes originally intended for elderly people have become used for general needs, whereas the increasing role for care in the community had led to persons with significant care needs being housed and "cared for" by health professionals on an occasional basis within their own dwelling. Some of these service users can have significant well being, mobility and mental health issues. Many would be unable to look after themselves effectively in an emergency and their actions may put others at risk.  Some health professionals have little regard for fire safety, on one scheme I became involved with the mental health professional had required that the landlord approve that the dwelling entrance door to be fastened back in the open position as their client would otherwise feel trapped and closed in.

BS5588 part 1 referred to sheltered housing and is still listed as current guidance in ADB. This guidance referred to the need for fire alarms in the communal areas of sheltered housing but the purpose was not to raise a general evacuation alarm in the dwellings but rather to ensure the fire service was called quickly. The fire service would consider the need for an evacuation if necessary. To ensure this early response BS 5588-1 recommended detection in the communal areas and escape routes and a smoke detector in the lobby of each dwelling. Dwellings should have smoke detection to alert the occupant to a fire in their own dwelling but not to alarms in other dwellings or the communal areas. 

The response of many fire brigades to calls from ARCs has changed radically and many brigades will not attend unless a responsible person on site confirms the need. This undermines the original objective of an early attendance.

BS5588-1 does not offer guidance on the action that should be taken in respect of a fire in the communal areas or escape routes and the extent of any audible alarm. Custom and practice is very varied, in many schemes the audible alarms are audible throughout communal areas and escape routes and persons instructed to evacuate the communal areas on hearing the alarms, but if in their dwelling to stay put. This has led to some persons leaving the communal areas and going to their flats whereas others go to an external assembly point. In many cases hirers of the rooms are not effectively briefed on their role in the event of fire. Whereas first aid  fire fighting equipment is generally provided there are no trained persons to use it.

BS5588-1 was superseded BT BS9991 but this document contained much less practical  guidance in  respect of sheltered housing and is of little value.

The other main guidance document for new buildings and alterations is ADB in England and Wales. This document recommends that the provision of any fire alarm and detection system be determined by a risk assessment/ fire strategy but that where there is a managed scheme there should be a connection between any fire alarm system and an ARC to enable the early investigation of any alarms.

For existing buildings in England and Wales the DCLG guidance for sleeping accommodation is intended to apply to the communal areas of sheltered housing but not to the individual dwellings which fall outside the scope of the Fire Safety Order as they are domestic premises. However the DCLG guidance recommends  that Grade C LD2 or LD3 (BS 5839-6 designations) be installed in the flats, the reference to Grade C is assumed to refer to the need for connection to a monitoring centre. The guidance is ambiguous in respect of both the level of detection and the provision of any facility for monitoring the alarm within the dwelling, though states that it need not be connected to any alarm covering the communal areas.

The DCLG guidance recommends an L2 system without defining the specific areas to be covered as specified in BS5839-1.

Custom and practice over the years has led to the installation, in very many sheltered housing schemes, of fire alarm systems that give rise to a general alarm throughout the building including within the dwellings even when a stay put policy is in place. The absence of on site wardens and the verification and attendance policy of many fire brigades means that despite the stay put policy occupiers of dwellings have to put up with the alarm sounding for a considerable time and therefore naturally leads to confusion and distress.

 On the other hand many sheltered housing schemes have structural weaknesses that undermine the stay put strategy. Common examples include borrowed lighting with poor standards of glazing between dwelling kitchens and communal corridors (very common in the early 1970s), no compartmentation between communal areas and dwelling corridors, a lack of fire separation between dwellings within the ceiling voids, poor fire doors, extended travel distances in dwelling corridors.

In a number of more recent designs, architects have incorporated social areas into corridors serving dwellings - these often comprise alcoves containing a range of upholstered furniture. Depending on the individual circumstances these facilities are either loved or loathed in equal proportions. In designated schemes for the over 50s they tend to be welcomed, but where a scheme is in mixed use they can become a major liability.

In response to the lack of consistent guidance BS5839-6 2013 sought to rationalise recommendations for sheltered housing.  Whilst it recommended that the design and specification of the alarm system should be based on a risk assessment / design strategy, it also  based its advice on the original BS5588-1 objectives of an early call to the fire service to enable them to intervene and extinguish the fire and assess any need for further evacuation of the occupiers. Individual occupiers of dwellings are still deemed responsible for their own evacuation.

Even with the benefit of BS5839-6 2013, current guidance falls short in a number of  respects. It does not give guidance on the action to be taken in the event of a fire alarm  in the communal areas, and does not take account of the absence or slow response  of an investigation team in the event of an alarm. It assumes the fire service will attend on the request of the ARC. It does not take account of the special needs of occupiers, some of whom, through their own special needs, may put others at risk.  There is no guidance on suitable risk control measures for sub standard premises, and whether full evacuation ever becomes a realistic alternative. There should be a range of clear guidance and instruction  for users of communal facilities. Where social alarms are used for the transmission of fire alarm signals then provision should be made to ensure that such signals are recognised as such at the ARC and that are responded to with the appropriate level of urgency.




« Last Edit: June 09, 2016, 01:43:35 AM by kurnal »

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2016, 01:14:11 PM »
Please everybody feel free to add any thoughts or opinions, the more we contribute the more chance Colin will have to make this guide work for us all. It's also really important that we have input from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2016, 11:03:30 PM »
I think Colin needs to clarify, fire safety in specialized housing, does it encompass sheltered, extra care and special housing or is it confined to special housing, it is difficult to make comments without knowing the types of premises involved?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Dinnertime Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
Re: New guidance on fire safety in specialized housing
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2016, 11:39:55 PM »
I think Colin needs to clarify, fire safety in specialized housing, does it encompass sheltered, extra care and special housing or is it confined to special housing, it is difficult to make comments without knowing the types of premises involved?

The OP says as defined in BS9991 - Housing specifically for people with a level of need who require support and care services

Sheltered retirement
Very sheltered/assisted living
Extra care
Close care housing
Retirement villages