Author Topic: Landlords as enforcers?  (Read 16041 times)

Offline Bruce89

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2016, 11:54:48 PM »
If the landlord has responsibility for the staircase as indicated in a previous posting then the EN would be served on the landlord, it's all about span of control.

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2016, 12:29:24 PM »
The EN was for housekeeping and I wouldn't think the landlord/owner would have control over that I would think the RP,s responsible or all of them if it can not be established who is responsible.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Bruce89

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2016, 07:30:27 PM »
As previously stated, judging from what AnthonyB posted the landlord appears to be the RP with regards the staircase, an Article 27 enquiry should this determine beyond any doubt. If the EN is served on the landlord relating to the house keeping of the staircase and it is not complied with then the FA would need to determine whether or not it appropriate to go after the landlord, as the legal people tend to say "it will all turn on the facts of the case".

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2016, 08:16:01 PM »
After considering the definition of a workplace it includes the common areas, including the stairs which is the responsibility of the RP,s. The landlord is not a RP but a PHC of the maintenance of the staircase and fire alarm but not the housekeeping of the common areas.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2016, 08:17:33 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2016, 09:20:40 PM »
Tom based on my question and scenario would you consider that article 5(4) would apply and the notice should be served on the landlord?

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2016, 10:59:17 AM »
Kurnal I think I would favour 5(3) because the owner/landlord would not have a contract or tenancy with themselves I think this is more for outside contractors. I do not see how housekeeping would be under the  owner/landlord control, as they are unlikely to reside in the building, could they be accused of causing the bad housekeeping and how would they monitor it, the RP's most likely cause the problem therefore should resolve it. The owner/landlord as PHC are only responsible for certain articles whereas the RP,s have a duty to implement article 8 to 22 unless they invoke article 33.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline kurnal

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2016, 07:54:51 PM »
Usual set up - tenants have full physical control over their floors, including electrical supply, landlord only maintains common plant, stairs and fire alarm through service charge with tenants having obvious rights of access to common circulation areas.
Tom did you see this posting from Anthony that the landlord maintain the the stairs and tenants have rights of access to the common circulation areas- that smacks to me of a 5.4 tenancy agreement or contract, the Order does not define either party to a contract so I assume both landlord and tenant would be bound by its implications?

Offline idlefire

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2016, 10:13:02 PM »

So assuming a single staircase, the staircase is used as a dumping ground for  a load of combustible junk and none of the employers will admit to being responsible. After much failed persuasion and in the face of an ongoing hazard the fire service decides formal enforcement action is appropriate. On whom should the enforcement  notice (s) be served? Each employer ? The landlord? All of these? None of them?

With the greatest respect Kurnal, I think we run the risk of over complicating this issue and in doing so we are missing the point of how the RR(FS)O 2005 is structured.

It is not for the enforcing authority to investigate who is responsible for dumping the combustible junk in the single stair, and then ask them to remove it.

The enforcing authority's role in all this is not to act as judge and/or mediator, theirs is to identify the "responsible person" (as defined by Article 3 and/or persons who might have control to "any extent" under Articles 4(3) & (4)) and, if they are not willing to accept their responsibilities, force them to do so.

In your specific scenario there are several responsible persons, ALL of whom have a duty to comply with Articles 8-22 [Article 5]; this duty is explicit on ALL of the responsible persons, whether or not they are prepared to accept any responsibility for leaving the combustible junk within the single stairway.

Let's say, for the sake of example, the fire authority believes the combustible junk on this single stair constitutes an offence under the Order, then ALL the responsible persons have failed to comply with their duties under Article 14(2)(b).

"It is an offence for a responsible person or any other person mentioned in article 5(3) to fail to comply with any requirement or prohibitions imposed by articles 8 to 22. Where that failure places one or more relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury in the case of fire". [Article 32 (1) (a)]

The ONLY defence under the Order is for a responsible person to PROVE that they have taken all reasonable measures and exercised ALL due diligence; which, I have to say, is a particularly high burden of proof.

"In any proceedings for an offence under this Order, it is a defence for the person charged to prove that he took all reasonable precautions and exercised all due diligence to avoid the commission of such an offence." [Article 33]

I personally believe that if it was within the power of a responsible person to have the combustible junk removed and they didn't, their defence of due diligence would not hold; there is no defence in that other persons might be more responsible.  

"Where the commission by any person of an offence under this Order, is due to the act or default of some other person, that other person is guilty of an offence, and the person may be charged with and convicted of the offence by virtue of this paragraph whether or not proceedings are taken against the first-mentioned person." [Article 32 (2) (10)]

Back in the day, given Article 32(2)(10), I am fairly certain I could have secured successful prosecutions on ALL the responsible persons in such circumstances, if this had been necessary.

Notwithstanding, when as an "enforcing authority" under Article 25, in situations like this I would use a degree of discretion and, after explaining the above and the principles of co-operation and co-ordination (Article 22) to all the "responsible persons"; if still necessary I would serve an Enforcement Notice on the "responsible person" I believed to be most responsible.  I would however leave all "responsible persons" in no doubt that, in the event of a reoccurrence, I would seek to prosecute all of them and let the Courts sort it out.

As always, other opinions might be available.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2016, 02:52:38 PM by idlefire »

Offline kurnal

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Re: Landlords as enforcers?
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2016, 07:58:41 AM »
Thanks idlefire for taking the time to produce such a comprehensive analysis. I think you have it spot on.

Apologies if I was being a little pedantic (most unusual I know ;) ) and  probably mis interpreted some earlier postings in respect of the overriding duties of the Employer over the potential for others to still be responsible to the extent of their control in a workplace in some circumstances.