Use of firefighting lifts for evacuation- resistance from F&RS

[AnthonyB]

In a couple of different Brigades I've had clients who have had persons in their building where the usual assortment of stair evacuation methods are not viable leaving only the lifts.

Both premises are fortunate in having fire fighting lifts in the correct shafts with suitable comms and back up power supplies and so in line with HMG Guidance for the use of lifts and escalators and the Disabled Persons Supplement have advised a managed usage with suitable training and evacuation plans, one element being that the lifts are not a free for all and only where all other options are totally unsuitable.

Evacuation timings are such that managed evac use would have ended before the first appliance arrives so not interfering with fire service ops and access.

However, when initial contact to discuss usage was made one FRS said 'they are only for us' and another gave unspecified "H&S" grounds against it - this is without even seeing the proposals and the fact they wouldn't impede their usage.

The first backed down when the HMG Guidance was thrown in their face along with the proposed usage plan, the other one is currently being liaised with still.

Anyone else had this problem?

[Messy]

In a word no.

We have implemented this but chose to have the arrangements validated by a 3rd party commercial fire safety consultant who  we could verify was competent as opposed to leaving this critical decision to a random fire safety enforcement offcer.

When we were audited years later the inspecting officer was initially reluctant until he saw our supporting report (quoting various BS numbers which impressed him) after which he was happy.

Challenge them - simple

[wee brian]

The "these lifts are for us" argument is old news and very wrong.

One of the, often voiced, concerns is that the brigade would not be able to use the lift if its being used for evacuation.
In practice, as soon as they throw the fire switch the lift will ground and they will be in control of it.
If there's a wheelchair user in it then that's one less person for them to rescue.

Its madness to expect people to use manual evac techniques when there's a fire hardened lift sitting there. odds are, that the evacuation will be complete before the brigade pull up.

[Fishy]

Ridiculous.  A Brigade suggesting that instead of being evacuated as swiftly as possible using an adequately safe lift the most vulnerable occupants of the building sit there in anticipation that they'll get laboriously swayed down the staircase on a device made from canvas and bent steel? They'd get laughed out of court (if it ever got that far...)

I point them at BS 9999 that specifically recommends that this can be considered (Annex G - G 2.1 to be specific).  It  recommends that "the relevant local fire authority should be consulted before implementation".  In theory, it doesn't mean that they have to agree with it - they might voice an objection but so long as you consider that objection you can still choose to ignore it, if you believe you have grounds to do so.  "Consultation" is not "agreement" - which is why Southern Railway are always on strike...

Fire-fighting lifts aren't the property of the fire brigade - you can do with them what you will so long as you're satisfied that you comply with relevant good practice and Regulation 38 of the FSO.  We'd always advise occupiers to consult with them if they want to use them for evacuation, but they don't always choose to do so (there's no absolute legal need) and short of a prohibition notice there's no means for the Fire Authority to prevent occupiers from using them for this purpose.

[wee brian]

blimey - is this consensus on Fire Net?

[kurnal]

Looks very much that way!

[Dinnertime Dave]

I really don't see a big problem in this. It is creating a difficult issue to overcome where there is a simple solution.

Operationally I could operate the firefighters switch and take control of the lift. I have also when in the fire service used a firefighting lift to evacuate a wheelchair user whilst fighting a fire on a floor above where she was sat. It wasn't my first priority, but when I had used the lift to get all the equipment and resources to where I wanted them I then used it for evacuation.

I really do think the fire service should be less possessive sometimes. 

 

[Fishy]

blimey - is this consensus on Fire Net?

Don't worry, we won't make a habit of it...