SP205 Companies

[hammer1]

Evening all

Is there a search engine listing SP205 certified companies ?

Seems to have gone all quite from where I am, wondered if this process will fail?  as it been a few years now?

Are there many companies on the scheme? As far as I see no clients are requesting this as part of the process for works (private sector that is).

[kurnal]

Check out the BAFE website

[hammer1]

Check out the BAFE website

So easy eh...

Thanks (44)

[William 29]

We are increasing getting enquiries via the BAFE website where clients are only using BAFE SP205 certificated companies or similar 3rd party schemes. It is now being stipulated on most tender docs.

[SeaBass]

There has been a noticeable increase in the number of bid processes for FRA work that require third party accreditation, particularly in the public sector, the housing sector, charitable organisations and the like. The problem that we have come across in the private sector is that procurement staff, who it appears, only ever look at cost and not quality, tend to have the final word when awarding contracts, and despite advertising the requirement for TPA companies, they will happily renege on the requirement if they can get the job done cheaper by a none TPA company or person.

[kurnal]

. The problem that we have come across in the private sector is that procurement staff, who it appears, only ever look at cost and not quality, tend to have the final word when awarding contracts, and despite advertising the requirement for TPA companies, they will happily renege on the requirement if they can get the job done cheaper by a none TPA company or person.

''Twas ever thus and always will be. They may soon realise cheap is not good value.   Shrug your shoulders and move on there's plenty of work out there. Console yourself that If they only look at price this will cut across all areas and such customers are often a nightmare to deal with.

I don't necessarily agree that SP 205 guarantees good quality. True story : My little non SP205 company, before retirement was not Eligible to tender for a local authority's FRAs as we did not have SP205 Accreditation . Two SP205 companies were appointed. We were later appointed by the same  local authority to audit and review the FRAs as they were dissatisfied with the standard. They offered a fee for the review that was higher than our tender would have been in the first case!

[colin todd]

God I get so tired of hearing-I went down to look at a fire alarm system/maintained fire extinguishers/fire risk assessment/sprinkler system/double glazing the other day-god what a load of crap, that's yer third party certificated firm for yer. So I put it all right and charged half the price.  Look back at postings on SP 203 for fire alarm contractors.

Well here is the other side of the story- 6 non-certificated fire risk assessors have now got criminal records, with 3 involving prison sentences, numerous duty holders have been prosecuted successfully for fire risk assessments that were not suitable and sufficient, without any exception (of which I am aware) all by non-certificated firms.  The fire risk assessment for Rosepark, which to this day remains the scene of the greatest number of deaths in a single fire since the Kings Cross disaster,was a load of crap carried out by a consultant, but a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment would have prevented some or all of the deaths.

That's yer non TPC certificated firms for yer.  So yer certificated firms put it all right and charged half the price.

So how should the duty holder find a competent fire risk assessor- oh of course, just find a big ad in the yellow pages.  In cross examination of a fire officer in the Rosepark Fatal Accident Inquiry he was asked by the QC for the home owners something along the following lines.  So if the duty holders find a huge ad in the yellow pages, top quality fire alarm systems, how would the duty holder know any different?  I dont think the QC ever got a satisfactory answer(and as he is now dead I am sure he went to his grave without any answer, other than one I gave in relation to the matter of competence, namely third party certification).

[JT]

Another new one:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-38991921

[AnthonyB]

Having just gone through our SP205-1 renewal audit we found it useful to have an outside expert eye cast on us as it helps us maintain good standards along side our internal systems and suggest different ideas - our auditor worked in partnership with us rather than a confrontational approach (as with some in the past) and it was a positive and smooth process.

The auditor did say that Scotland's review of their legislation may result in the mandatory use of TPC assessors at least for certain purpose groups, it would be nice if this came to pass, we will see!

[SeaBass]

I don't think that anyone on this forum would consider the Kurnal and his former business to be anything other than fully competent.  But the times they are a chang'in,  and there are fewer and fewer Assessors who have come up through the traditional FS training and education routes, and in far too many cases the underpinning knowledge and an appreciation of the limits of competency are no longer there.  CT makes a very good point. It's OK for those of us with knowledge of the industry to make a judgement on an individual Assessors competency and maybe even on the competency levels of a small firm. But if you're not in the know, if you can only judge one of two members of a company with twenty or more Assessors, then you really do need some assurance that the people you're taking on are not complete bozo's, and if you don't use TPA as your yard stick, what do you do?     

[Tom Sutton]

If a FR assessor in IFE registered would you consider him/her competent or does one have to be SP205-1 certificated?

[AnthonyB]

If a FR assessor in IFE registered would you consider him/her competent or does one have to be SP205-1 certificated?

You would expect them to be as registration is assessed, not just pay up and you are in.

BAFE isn't the only scheme of course, you also have the Warringtion Company FRACS scheme plus all the individual registers - all have their place.

[kurnal]

I think Sea Bass has it spot on and I fully agree. Thanks for that Sea Bass. But I am more interested in why the client was dissatisfied with the appointed contractors despite SP205. That's between the client and customer. The outcome was that as I was by then having to wind things up they appointed one of my assessors as an employee fire safety adviser to sort things out.

As for Colin we have done this to death many times and basically I agree with you too.

I agree it is essential that the industry moves towards accredited TPC as the skills of retiring Fire Services IOS are lost and qualification levels diminish.

[Tom Sutton]

As far as I understand SP205 certifies the company no matter how many FR assessors there are, there is no individual certification. Therefore should they be individually assessed and be on one of the recommended registers.

[William 29]

As far as I understand SP205 certifies the company no matter how many FR assessors there are, there is no individual certification. Therefore should they be individually assessed and be on one of the recommended registers.

We were the 4th company in the UK to gain BAFE SP 205-1, so we have been through the audit process many times now. Individual assessors are audited on a periodic basis, this includes a "site witnesses audit" by the auditing company on an FRA they have done. The FRA is sent to the auditor prior to the visit so that the FRA can be scrutinised. We have then opted for all our assessors over a set time frame to be "Validators" under the BAFE SP 205 scheme, meaning that they can audit and "validate" other assessors FRAs. "Validators" are then eligible to apply to be accepted to go on the MIFSM NAFAR register (Nationally Accredited Fire Risk Assessors Register) as individuals.

See http://www.ifsm.org.uk/fra-registers/nafrar/


The Nationally Accredited Fire Risk Assessors Register (NAFRAR) has been introduced by the Institute to ensure that those assessors who are eligible to register must have been through a process that has recognised their achievement at the highest standards and levels of competency for fire risk assessors that is available. This means that their experience and competency has been successfully examined and tested by an independent third party accreditation / certification scheme.

People using the register are reminded to read the important notes provided prior to entering the register, the conditions of which you must accept before proceeding.