Call out system (Fire Stations) gas shut off systems

[Fire Monkey]

Hello,

At many fire stations there are gas shut of systems for the kitchens. These cut off the gas supply to the cookers when the Call Out System Activates (999 calls) which allows the station crews to safety leave the building quickly and maintain their response times without worrying about turning off the over/hobs grills etc).

May I ask in terms of a FRA how important is it to have one? Is there any legal requirement or guidelines that I am not aware of or is this more of a building protection/business continuity advisory requirement?

Note - also applies to kitchen with electric cooking equipment only.

Thanks,

[Bruce89]

It isn't a measure provided to secure means of escape for relevant persons, it is as you state more for business continuity/property protection.
There are no stations in my Fire Authority area that have this facility, after all it takes seconds to turn off jobs grills etc. If you think about it how many Fire Alarm systems do you know of are interfaced this way, I personally have never encountered any but wouldn't consider the risk assessment as not being suitable and sufficient on this issue.

[wee brian]

Preventing fires is what the Order is meant to be about.

There've been more than a few fire station fires I the past. Not only do they present a risk to anybody left in the building etc etc. But you also take an important resource off line.

[Fishy]

Preventing fires is what the Order is meant to be about.

There've been more than a few fire station fires I the past. Not only do they present a risk to anybody left in the building etc etc. But you also take an important resource off line.

... plus any potentially affected neighbours might come under the second part of the definition of relevant persons - "any person in the immediate vicinity of the premises who is at risk from a fire on the premises".

Is this not straightforward?  You have a hazard, so to provide protection you either a) provide the automatic cut-off or b) there's a procedure whereby the appliances are turned off before the other 'appliances' leave?  Either is fine, if properly conceived and managed?

[SeaBass]

I?ve come across quite a few installations with automatic fuel shut offs linked to the fire alarm. Works Kitchens are the most common example, but I?ve also seen them in care homes and hospital kitchens.  I think that the valves are more common than many Risk Assessors realise, partly because the valves are not always located near to the cooking equipment and they are not always easily recognisable as automatic shut off valves.  One also needs to remember that many kitchens have a fairly high turnover of chiefs, so adopting a managed procedure for shutting down and making safe cooking appliances is not a reliable long term strategy. 

As with all such plant interruption facilities, unless there is a C&E interrupt key provided at the fire panel, the disruption that routine testing can have on day-to-day operations, when all the pant and the fuel valves close down, can be significant. In a fire station kitchen this isn?t a problem but in commercial kitchens it really can be, particularly if partially cooked food starts to cool before the fuel valves are reset.

[Bruce89]

I accept they may be a must have in a normal commercial setting where it is doubted that staff procedures would be  sufficiently robust, but returning to the original posting regarding fire stations, yes, there have been fires in them, I can recall a 4 pumper in a London station caused by an illegal distillery set up in the roof space, but kitchen fires on stations are few and far between and not imho a big enough issue to make automatic shut offs a must have, instead perhaps a nice to have.
I'm in total agreement with fishys second para, but I think it highly unlikely that any neighbours would be deemed relevant persons, but it is of course possible.
Yes wee Brian, prevention is as you say what the Order is meant to be about, but in reality isn't it really about means of escape.

[Mike Buckley]

I have come across a lot of these shut off valves in hotels. The shut off valve is linked directly to the fire alarm system which is also activated by any Ansul type system over the cooking ranges. Usually there was no bypass system for testing as it was seen that this was also part of the weekly fire alarm test. All the engineers carrying out the test knew they had to reset the valve once the test had been completed and the kitchen staff also knew that on a set day at a set time the gas and power was going to go down. Other modifications for the kitchens were that the extraction system was also linked to the fire alarm so that shut down as well, which was useful in some kitchens where the fire doors were held slightly ajar by the air pressure!

Back to fire station kitchens, I remember in my day we always had a large kettle on a low gas overnight so we could have a brew when we got back from a job!

[kurnal]

Isn't this all a bit OTT?

Or have things changed since my station days?
In my memory the great majority of fire stations just had domestic type cookers. Larger multi pump stations had more commercial type kitchens but they tended to have more staff and sometimes designated cooks. Then habits changed and most people dropped out of the organised catering and did their own thing. The cooks were all sacked as the first line of cost saving measures and apart from occasional watch suppers the kitchens became little used.

Automatic shut down would have been a curse because we used to put part eaten meals in the hotbox and anything cooking in the oven on a low light so that it can be recovered later. And we expected firefighters to remember basic rules of fire prevention!

[Bruce89]

OTT on fire stations...absolutely, elsewhere maybe, maybe not.

[Fire Monkey]

Cheers all.

I noticed this equipment was not fitted to just one station out of many. As I thought this appears to be a building protection/business continuity questions rather than life safety. Turning off the gas can be a site management responsibility.

My concern is where do you stand if only one building out of many, in a portfolio, does not have this equipment - a judge would surely ask questions about that if there were a fie or injury.

Right  - now to have a chat with that Fire Service - talk about sucking eggs. 

[kurnal]

If , as we all agree that this provision is for property protection rather than life safety then there would be no reason for a judge to be involved.

The insurers may be interested but that should be as far as it goes.

[Fishy]

I wouldn't necessarily agree that it's a property protection issue in all cases.  For example:

- the station might have other occupants that remain in the building once the fire-fighting crews have left;
- The station might be attached or very close to other premises (like many of those in central London);

As I said, the fact that a building might be unoccupied doesn't necessarily mean there aren't fire safety issues with it - it's why the definition of "relevant persons" in the RRO specifically includes people that are not within the premises.  Of course, if it's a single storey building in the middle of nowhere then there probably isn't an issue!

[SeaBass]

Surely, if the fire compartmentation /separation is questionable, if there is a sleeping risk present without suitable means of detecting a fire and giving warning, and arguably in most hospitals or care homes the lack of a fuel shut off linked to the fire alarm system would be a life safety issue. Although there are other risk reduction measures that I?d look to before requesting an automatic fuel shut off.  Everywhere else its an asset protection / business disruption matter. Or in the case of the FS an embarrassment limitation arrangement. 

[kurnal]

Connecting the equipment to the fire alarm system would indeed make this a life safety issue. However in the first post the OP referred to connection to the turnout system making any argument over life safety very tenuous in my humble opinion?

[nearlythere]

 And we always had the big kettle on gas slow simmer always ready for post call cuppa.