Author Topic: Alteration Notices (Read 9956 times)

johndoe · « **on:** October 03, 2005, 07:09:26 PM »

Hi Can anyone enlighten me on the following about alteration notices
1) who or should I say what type of premises will get them?

according to the RRO they are for premises which are a serious risk ( what are we doing about them to reduce risk) or could be a serious risk but they must inform the fire brigade if there is a "significant" increacse in risk
2) Is significant increse explained to us rp?
3) If they are not issued with plans how will the FSO know if any changes have taken place?

If as one FSO suggested to me they are to replsce section 8 FPA, which didnt work, (his words) then my last question is
4) What is the point?

wee brian · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2005, 10:37:38 PM »

They are to replace section 8. There is no point.

PhilB · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2005, 10:45:15 PM »

Brian there is a point...

Yes I would agree that alterations notices are broadly similar to sec. 8 of FPA.
They enable enforcing authority to maintain greater control in higher risk premises. Higher risk is not defined so that F&RS can decide which premises to target in line with IRMP.

Sec 8. did work if FPA was adequately enforced.

As to plans most complex premises to which alterations notices apply will have plans...how else will they record the preventive & protective measures??

Think of shopping malls...these are the type of premises alterations notices should be served on. You don't want some responsible person mucking around with smoke control system without prior consultation with enforcing authority.

I dont believe you can reduce the risk to an extent that enforcing authority would not want to know about alterations in these type of premises.

Under FPA all certificated premises had to consult regardless of risk...often this was a pointless exercise and therefore many premises failed to consult and F&RS turned a blind eye.

colin todd · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2005, 01:55:54 AM »

PhiLIp, Your posting scares me. I do believe I almost find myself in 90% agreement with it. Possibly even more. Should I go and lie down or is it simply that, having listened so much to you, I will soon be able to recount the tyre pressures of the old Merrywweather t/l.

johndoe · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2005, 07:10:20 AM »

Thanks for your replies.
Philip
I was quite shocked you thought that shopping centres would get them but I can see your point. I just find the wording of a significant increase in risk will people believe (or know) what they are doing is a signficant increase in risk.

PhilB · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2005, 08:17:26 AM »

Johndoe.....Well hopefully as laid down in the order the responsible persons in such premises will appoint a competent person to advise them of such matters.

Come on Colin..must be something we can bitch about!

colin todd · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2005, 12:16:49 PM »

Yes, PhiLip that was my view, but your impression in respect of alterations notices appears to be more or less right. There is hope for you after all, but do try to listen to your Uncle Colllllllllin sometimes. Just because he irritates you does not mean he is wrong.

wee brian · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2005, 03:45:06 PM »

Lets face it he is always irritating but cant always be wrong.

OK so maybe there are some beneifts of an Alts notice but remember they don't have to consult you they just have to tell you that they are going to do something.

This then alows you (the FRS) to put the building on the list of places that need to be looked at.

It may be worth making a note that some Alterations would come under the building regs, the FRS could just ring the Local Authority and check that it was being dealt with.

PhilB · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2005, 03:58:43 PM »

Nearly correct Brian But enforcing authority (not always FRS) may include a requirement in notice that before changes are made enforcing authority are informed and provided with details of proposed changes and a copy of the risk assessment.

val · « **Reply #9 on:** January 24, 2007, 07:28:02 PM »

I am still chundering a bit about the concept of alteration notices.

Now that the government has devolved responsibility for writing the enforcers guidance to the Welsh Assembly, has anyone had an appeal against the serving of these almost worthless pieces of paper?

Has anyone who has served them been deluged with details of every change with the premises?

Would anyone like me to act on their behalf in Court when they challenge one of these?

More seriously, I would welcome any feedback...problems or otherwise...numbers served?

PhilB · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2007, 09:33:03 PM »

What a blast from the past.......such fond memories of Dear Collin.

Yes I know of an example in my area where an alterations notice has been served. A large shopping mall who introduced an unacceptable fire load in the mall without any consultation...had their wrists slapped and served notice not to breathe without consent from FRS...exactly what the article was intended for.

If anyone has seen Collllin Todddd send him my love xx

val · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2007, 12:34:45 PM »

Phil,

Bit rich that..."a blast from the past," from a closet prescriptionist!

Serve them an enforcement notice requiring them to set up a proper management regime to prperly consider the risks before they act.

You'll be wanting fire certificates back next.

PhilB · « **Reply #12 on:** January 28, 2007, 02:41:56 PM »

I'm not a closet prescriptionist at all Val...strange comment!! But I do believe the FRS should retain a degree of control on high risk premises...and that was the intention of article 29. Entirely appropriate in the example I gave. Explain why you disagree please.

In my opinion an enforcemnt notice was not appropriate..they had a good management system. What they didnt have was the expertese to realise that their actions could compromise an engineered solution.

ian gough · « **Reply #13 on:** January 28, 2007, 04:57:54 PM »

Phil: I'll tell him on Tuesday when I see him. I'm sure he'll be touched!

PhilB · « **Reply #14 on:** January 28, 2007, 05:01:13 PM »

Thanks Ian...but seriously, please send him my kindest regards.

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Author Topic: Alteration Notices (Read 9956 times)