Author Topic: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2  (Read 15308 times)

Offline Tom Sutton

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BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« on: January 07, 2017, 12:19:43 PM »
BS7273-4:2015 says ? In many such premises,(those the public have access) particularly those involving public entertainment or sale of alcohol, the use of electrically secured doors on means of escape is unacceptable to the enforcing authorities/bodies.? Is this correct, as the CLG entertainment guides says they should be risk assessed, who is right?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Bruce89

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2017, 02:51:10 PM »
I would say in these days of non prescriptive risk assessed fire safety, the guide would appear more appropriate.

Offline Fishy

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2017, 05:42:24 PM »
They both can be.

- You might choose compliance with BS 7273-4 as a means of justifying your risk assessment (in fact, in most cases this is probably the appropriate approach);
- If you're designing a system as part of building works then the CLG guides wouldn't normally be the primary basis of design - you'd use the guidance intended for that purpose (e.g. BS 9999, for example, which would refer you to BS 7273-4).

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2017, 09:33:11 AM »
To clarify my question "Is it unacceptable to FRS/other bodies to have electrically secured doors on escape routes."
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline wee brian

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2017, 09:40:35 AM »
I think its serves as a warning to check with enforcers before going ahead.

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 10:32:53 AM »
Tom you only have to visit any shopping centre or shop to see your answer?

Offline Bruce89

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 07:05:46 PM »
No it is not unacceptable subject to appropriate control measures being in place.

Offline colin todd

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 08:53:40 PM »
Would you be happy to have electronic locking on a nightclub, theater or public house?  The CLG guidance also states that the starting position is that they should not be permitted.  However.....

Also, ADB does not like them on exits from rooms with more than 60 people in shop or assembly.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 09:04:31 PM by colin todd »
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Bruce89

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2017, 07:27:17 AM »
The CLG "guidance"
I don't like a lot of things but it doesn't mean they are not allowed.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2017, 08:01:46 PM »
Quite common in some shops on otherwise panic proof doors, I wonder if they are to 'Critical' specification (which if you were trying to justify their use in an otherwise panic proof exit from shop or assembly you would surely be requiring as part of your justification.

It's not beyond impossibility that a place of assembly might require evacuation without the fire alarm being activated (or possibility only after a delay), if this involves a lot of people unfamiliar with the premises reaching the exit at once (or in a short time) you've got problems as your panic fastenings won't open the door as the mags are still on
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Offline Mike Buckley

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 01:25:37 PM »
It's not beyond impossibility that a place of assembly might require evacuation without the fire alarm being activated (or possibility only after a delay), if this involves a lot of people unfamiliar with the premises reaching the exit at once (or in a short time) you've got problems as your panic fastenings won't open the door as the mags are still on

In which case I would be looking for robust procedures to ensure the doors are released. I would think that if you are going to try to evacuate a premises without activating an alarm then you will need some good planning. If you look at the normal reaction to a fire alarm (what happens not what we would like to happen) it is going to be difficult to get people moving.

What if scenarios are fine but there is a logical limit to the scenarios, just think of the freedom of information requests to Councils for their plans for zombie invasions. I did some what if scenarios for a Brigade Control Room re the communications between Control and the fire stations and the appliances and finally got to the stage where we realized that not only couldn't Control mobilize the appliances but in that situation no-one could actually get a fire call into control anyway.
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Offline lyledunn

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2017, 07:44:43 AM »
It is easy to override the mag with a mechanical push pad such that the door opens, power on or off. It is the only acceptable means of fastening in Belfast clubs when applying for an entertainment licence. Normally fitted on front doors or doors adjacent the front entrance.

Offline David Rooney

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2017, 10:20:31 AM »
It is easy to override the mag with a mechanical push pad such that the door opens, power on or off. It is the only acceptable means of fastening in Belfast clubs when applying for an entertainment licence. Normally fitted on front doors or doors adjacent the front entrance.

Am guessing you are talking about a final exit to air ?

A secured door in this scenario to me means there is some kind of swipe / code required to release said door from one or both sides, and if you need to pass through this door as it's on the MoE then it needs to release on a fire condition or any other condition requiring evacuation of the building that doesn't necessarily include the activation of the fire alarm.

In this situation you can't have a crash bar fitted to override the locking mechanism or green break glass .....
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Offline Fairway123

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 09:20:11 PM »
Hi David

I've encountered a similar scenario as the one you describe. We got around the problem by utilising a motorised push bar. It's compliant with BS EN 1125 on the egress side and we have a security card reader on the outside (there are also green 'push button to exit' and break glass points).

It is secure on the entry into the building using the security card reader, then to leave you have the push bar which is mechanical. 

I can send a link but don't want to look like I'm spamming or anything. If you're still stuck drop me a message and I'll send you the details and offer an explanation on how we deployed them.

Best regards

F123

Offline kurnal

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Re: BS7273-4:2015 p.44, Table B.2
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2017, 09:39:07 PM »
Don't worry f123 post that link and it will help others