Leasehold shared loft

[Fraudley]

Thanks again chaps.

It's a leasehold property. 3 floors I believe. Kurnal I agree. I grew up in a street where I could go in my loft and come down in a neighbours 20 houses away. Tell local authorities to comply with todays regs... its simply not feasible. I wont get on my soapbox about guides and codes just yet but i'm in the business of looking at a building and asking IF a fire will happen, what will happen. Too many people look at a building and imagine WHEN the fire happens. I believe if the roof is 1 hour, the walls are as should be, no resident in the block is vulnerable, escape routes are protected and there is AFD in the flats, I would be comfortable with a fire curtain. I haven't seen the equipment involved but possibly also relocating the warden call. If a fire should break out in one flat, by the time it could affect others we would expect them to be out of the building and the fire brigade to already be on scene wouldn't we?

on another matter..

"76.4       The lines of compartmentation between flats located on the top floor of a building should, where there is a common roof void above, extend through the roof void in a continuous vertical plane to the underside of the roof.  This will ensure that the fire-resisting ?box? principle, extends into the common roof voids, to prevent fire spread between flats, and fire spread from a flat into other areas of the building, via the common roof void.  It is not appropriate to complete the line of compartmentation within roof voids by installing cavity barriers above the compartment walls that separate flats"

Why not?

Is this guide stating that cavity barriers are ineffective? Is that a proven fact now? Or is this guidance for planned builds. My point being as with all guides out there it doesn't say... "But if this is already in place... do X,Y and Z to compensate." Or am I being too practical here?

Idlefire - Not until a document is written by people who actually manage specialised housing will there be one that can be completely relied upon. Landlord contributing to guides is not enough because the right questions and existing scenarios, that landlords have to battle against are not included or properly discussed. OK slooowly sliding my soapbox back under the bed....

[Dinnertime Dave]

Idlefire - Not until a document is written by people who actually manage specialised housing will there be one that can be completely relied upon. Landlord contributing to guides is not enough because the right questions and existing scenarios, that landlords have to battle against are not included or properly discussed. OK slooowly sliding my soapbox back under the bed....

I attended the roadshow in Manchester, my personal opinion as an ex-inspecting officer and now managing the fire risks in a large housing association is that the the process was open and transparent.

There did seem a genuine interest in seeking the views of stakeholders. A lot was discussed and a number of time the quote of "We haven't considered that and will look to add something" was made.

[William 29]

It's a leasehold property. 3 floors I believe. Kurnal I agree. I grew up in a street where I could go in my loft and come down in a neighbours 20 houses away. I assume you are talking about a terraced street? Not the same.

Tell local authorities to comply with todays regs... its simply not feasible. I wont get on my soapbox about guides and codes just yet but i'm in the business of looking at a building and asking IF a fire will happen, what will happen. Too many people look at a building and imagine WHEN the fire happens. I believe if the roof is 1 hour, the walls are as should be, no resident in the block is vulnerable, escape routes are protected and there is AFD in the flats, I would be comfortable with a fire curtain. I haven't seen the equipment involved but possibly also relocating the warden call. If a fire should break out in one flat, by the time it could affect others we would expect them to be out of the building and the fire brigade to already be on scene wouldn't we? What if the fire starts in an empty flat and breaks through the limited FR ceiling?

on another matter..


Is this guide stating that cavity barriers are ineffective? Is that a proven fact now? Yes evidenced in some recent fires, once in place, difficult to check and keep maintained in the original state as intended, power cables, sky installations, contractor work, etc over the years

[colin todd]

Big Al. It was confusion in terminology.  I thought you were talking about drop curtains, which, on reflection, you were not.  I agree that, obviously, products like mineral wool fire barrier can give insulation with enough layers, but it is open to the abuse cited by Wullie.

But a cavity barrier is not a compartment wall.  And I do not believe that a 60 minute ceiling and slinging cavity barriers at some undefined spacing would satisfy the Building Regs.  In existing buildings, where this arrangement exists, some form of fire resisting barrier needs to be installed in line with the walls of each flat.  The fact that it does not already exist in some properties does not make it acceptable.  Flames emanating from windows and entering the roof void, or a fire that starts in the roof void, are not addressed by a 60 minute ceiling in the flats.  As Wullie points out, this is not just hypothetical.

It is a little arrogant to suggest that only landlords are competent to write guidance on fire safety in their properties.  If landlords managed fire safety properly, there would no need for guidance.  Maybe we should only allow Marks and Spencer to write fire safety guidance for shops.   You should see the totally conflicting views we are receiving on some issues from the property sector

[Fraudley]

William. Not sure why you say terraced street is not the same, I'd be interested to know why (not saying you are wrong, merely curious).
When you say what if re the limited ceiling, if it's reconstructed for 60min FR then cant we all go down a list of what ifs forever and a day? If we are talking about saving life here i'm not sure what point you are making. Again, treading carefully I'm just interested... call it learning if you will.
Lastly, your point about barriers you are saying difficult to manage. If a property if risk assessed every 3 years, contractor works are checked when complete, aren't you again stating a potential, not a fact?
And I also agree regarding the potential for fir to enter the flat from an external point. But the property will have AFD and it can be upgraded.

Dave, that's good to hear. Will the document be something housing managers can pick up and make decisions with? That is the test.

Colin I totally agree it does not make it acceptable if the standard is not to what we would all expect, my point being, no one is telling anyone that they must identify shortcomings in all existing buildings and put it right.
and believe me when I say I am well aware of your work Colin and have the utmost respect for you. I wasn't referring to landlords writing guidance. I was referring to fire safety professionals that are responsible for, and who work in housing day to day. Customer facing. Working alongside housing and estate managers. How often is clear corridor debated in this forum. We know it makes sense. Fire authorities know it makes sense. But when you are faced with residents who are genuinely distressed by a clear corridor policy, that wasn't in place when they moved in whenever that may be, no guidance provides solutions to this. I'll give you an example to make my point. You cannot have a chair mid point on a stairwell for all obvious reasons. I'm the only person I know that has suggested to one client to install effectively a drop down shower chair. People that cant manage a flight of stairs in one go, people living in flats with no room to swing a cat let alone store a mobility walking frame so they put them in the corridor. I know one housing provider that has a clear corridor policy, yet a particular FA has allowed their residents in one location to store their scooters in side at the bottom of a stairwell, with no alternative MOE for the residents in the upper flats.

What I'm saying, is housing providers need to find solutions to these issues, and they have. But what will be agreeable with one fire authority wont necessarily be OK with another. And that's where guidance can help.

Slightly off point regarding my original post though. As is typical with fire safety, we will not all agree. I'm merely trying to see if the issue could be resolved without thinking the very worst is definitely going to happen regardless.

[William 29]

William. Not sure why you say terraced street is not the same, I'd be interested to know why (not saying you are wrong, merely curious).
When you say what if re the limited ceiling, if it's reconstructed for 60min FR then cant we all go down a list of what ifs forever and a day? If we are talking about saving life here i'm not sure what point you are making. Again, treading carefully I'm just interested... call it learning if you will.
Lastly, your point about barriers you are saying difficult to manage. If a property if risk assessed every 3 years, contractor works are checked when complete, aren't you again stating a potential, not a fact?
And I also agree regarding the potential for fir to enter the flat from an external point. But the property will have AFD and it can be upgraded.

Firstly, this is nothing new and has been part of building regs for a while now, also note BS 9991:2015 Section 19.1.1 "It is important to continue any compartment wall up through a ceiling or roof cavity to maintain the standard of fire resistance, therefore compartment walls should be carried up full storey height to a compartment floor or to the roof as appropriate. It is therefore not appropriate to complete a line of
compartmentation by fitting cavity barriers above the compartment wall"
Diagram 24 following 19.1.1  indicates where cavity barriers may be used in tandem with compartment walls within a roof void.

Re your other points without sounding arrogant and trying to genuinely help with your question, I think it comes down to practical experience and application of the subject. Common roof voids in terraced housing is quite common and I have fought fires in such circumstances where the fire has spread across most of the roof, usually people evacuate safety in these circumstances.
You seem to be describing sheltered or general needs flats where usually a "stay put" policy would be accepted. I wouldn't be comfortable with a 60min ceiling in the top floor flats and an unseparated roof void above that relies on cavity barriers and a 60min FR ceiling. As detailed above this simply does not meet building regs standards.
Additional AFD would not solve it (as I assume you mean in the loft), as if this detection operates what will be the cause and effect? i.e. how do residents know when to evacuate or stay put? The only AFD normally installed would be a Part 6 system in the flats (if general needs) and a Part 1 system in the common areas if sheltered.

Re the cavity barriers I have had practical experience of a fire in a tower block, starting on an external balcony, spreading to the roof void where cavity barriers were originally fitted instead of extending the flat walls to the underside of the roof. The fire destroyed 2 flats and a large section of the roof and lift motor room. On inspection after the fire it was evident that cavity barriers were in place but had never been checked, which was only part of the problem. Once the fire gets into the void the flats to the ceilings would have NO fire resistance as this is not tested in a downwards direction. By that I mean the 60min ceiling will only give you 60 mins if the fire originates from within the flat.   

[colin todd]

Wullie, how very well said.  You are definitely getting the hang on this fire safety stuff, despite having been a fire officer.

[Fishy]

Cavity barriers aren't typically as robust as compartment walls; they are usually hung from the roof construction and if (when) the roof collapses on the fire side you're pretty much guaranteed that they'll be brought down with it.

[William 29]

Wullie, how very well said.  You are definitely getting the hang on this fire safety stuff, despite having been a fire officer.

 

[kurnal]

That's true Fishy but at that stage, even in flats with a stay put policy, is it a life safety or property protection issue?

I understand this to be a 3 storey flats conversion with 2 flats per floor. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[colin todd]

 I am not a doctor, though I did study vet medicine for a while, but it would seem to me that having a roof bounce off your head would tend to be detrimental to health, not to mention the difficulty for fire-fighters to search a flat that is full of roof.

[Fraudley]

Thanks everyone for your input on this matter I am very grateful. Totally agree with all the points made and want to thank you for your contributions.

 
 

[Bluffnpersuasion]

Pardon my Ignorance but if the roof void is only accessible for maintenance purposes then is it a common area? and if it's not a common area then what has it got to do with the fire risk assessment ? Please remember the only stupid question is one you don't ask

[colin todd]

It might be a common area.  It all turns on the meaning of the phrase "used in common".

[idlefire]

It might be a common area.  It all turns on the meaning of the phrase "used in common".

Does it really matter if it is a "common" area by any definition or not?

Surely the fact that it is a "place" to which the Order does not apply by virtue of Article 6 is the relevant point.