Newgrange Care Home

[Fishy]

Yes - extremely geeky that I knew about it, but I did once burn things for a living & I've tried to keep up to speed on these things. I'm conscious that we should all really be specifying the BS EN classifications, rather than continuing to use the BS 476 terminology.  As WB says, unlikely that you'd be able to find a product readily available in the UK, though someone like Knauf (German) might just have a detail?

Might see it used more as it could be really useful for ceilings over protected corridors, if (for any reason) the F/R walls don't go up to the soffit (I know they should, but it happens...)

[SeaBass]

In my experience, the modern systems used for the construction of structural compartmentation are extremely intolerant of inaccurate  and /or poor workmanship. This, combined with the gradual and continuous deskilling of many construction workers, and the demise of the clerk of the works, results in fire compartments in buildings which are significantly less effective and robust than those created using traditional construction methods.

We also need to remember that BCO's and AI's are not there to quality control the work. They simply make judgments on design proposals, plans, and what they can see without the aid of tools or access equipment.

[David Rooney]

Hmmm .... interesting stuff .... thank you .....

[colin todd]

Just take the walls through the void like wot ADB says and dont mess about. And if an AI says you dont need to, send them to talk to Oor Wullie, who talks a lot of sense on the subject (albeit with a Northern accent).

[Dinnertime Dave]

Another fire where a full evacuation took place.

https://www.staffordshire.police.uk/article/7428/Residents-safely-evacuated-following-fire-at-Tamworth-elderly-care-home?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

Caused by smoking.

[Owain]

Another fire where a full evacuation took place.

https://www.staffordshire.police.uk/article/7428/Residents-safely-evacuated-following-fire-at-Tamworth-elderly-care-home?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

Although two residents are 'seriously' ill, it looks like a successful evacuation took place. Interestingly, Standon House looks like a former domestic residence with a number of add-ons rather than purpose-built.

Photos here
http://www.tamworthherald.co.uk/firefighters-remain-at-tamworth-care-home-blaze/story-30273726-detail/story.html

[Owain]

"Fire barriers within roof spaces", eh

https://www.crisis-response.com/forum/index.php?topic=3251.msg77402#msg77402
(Posted by Dinnertime Dave)

[William 29]

Just take the walls through the void like wot ADB says and dont mess about. And if an AI says you dont need to, send them to talk to Oor Wullie, who talks a lot of sense on the subject (albeit with a Northern accent).

 

[wee brian]

Interesting thing with ADB, is that not every bedroom is enclosed in a compartment wall. so you've got compartment walls for the progressive Horizontal evac (up through the roof void) and FR walls for the bedrooms and corridors (with cavity barriers in the roof void).

So an ADB compliant care home will have more cavity barriers than you can shake a stick at, plus a few compartment walls....

[col10]

Taking up all the walls / fitting barriers around the bedrooms is expensive because AFD is needed to each space formed in the roof.  

Most modern construction uses trussed rafters.  If the barrier passes through the truss then the barrier is, in theory, ineffective because the truss is a frame and needs all parts of the truss to be intact for structural stability.  Even if the barrier is parallel and fixed to the truss, then the barrier will be penetrated by the bracing timbers, with a potential weakness at the penetration.  

The difficulty of fixing an effective  barrier where trussed rafters are used means that the designer chooses the option in ADB to use a fire resistant ceiling.  Then there is the problem of fitting a hatch in the fire resistant ceiling to maintain the  AFD in the loft.

You also have to take up the walls around the protected shaft (stairway) as well as the compartment walls.  

[William 29]

Taking up all the walls / fitting barriers around the bedrooms is expensive because AFD is needed to each space formed in the roof.  

The difficulty of fixing an effective  barrier where trussed rafters are used means that the designer chooses the option in ADB to use a fire resistant ceiling.  Then there is the problem of fitting a hatch in the fire resistant ceiling to maintain the  AFD in the loft.

Why would you fit AFD as well? Are you thinking the over 800mm clause 5839?

Once the FR is in place and there is no need to enter the loft, would you need to do maintenance inspections? The RP just needs to make sure once FR is in place any contractor or trades person is aware not to breach any FR walls or if they do, how to make them good.

[Fire Monkey]

Were possible I always inspect the roof voids when carrying out a risk assessment and indeed recently found a lack of compartmentalisation in one that since has been rectified.

[col10]

Taking up all the walls / fitting barriers around the bedrooms is expensive because AFD is needed to each space formed in the roof.  

The difficulty of fixing an effective  barrier where trussed rafters are used means that the designer chooses the option in ADB to use a fire resistant ceiling.  Then there is the problem of fitting a hatch in the fire resistant ceiling to maintain the  AFD in the loft.

Why would you fit AFD as well? Are you thinking the over 800mm clause 5839?

Once the FR is in place and there is no need to enter the loft, would you need to do maintenance inspections? The RP just needs to make sure once FR is in place any contractor or trades person is aware not to breach any FR walls or if they do, how to make them good.

Yes, void more than 800mm.

[col10]

Were possible I always inspect the roof voids when carrying out a risk assessment and indeed recently found a lack of compartmentalisation in one that since has been rectified.

When the roof insulation quilt is laid over the ceiling joists, is it considered a safe working procedure to walk in the loft?, view only from the top of a ladder or lay access boards?

[William 29]

Taking up all the walls / fitting barriers around the bedrooms is expensive because AFD is needed to each space formed in the roof.  

The difficulty of fixing an effective  barrier where trussed rafters are used means that the designer chooses the option in ADB to use a fire resistant ceiling.  Then there is the problem of fitting a hatch in the fire resistant ceiling to maintain the  AFD in the loft.

Why would you fit AFD as well? Are you thinking the over 800mm clause 5839?

Once the FR is in place and there is no need to enter the loft, would you need to do maintenance inspections? The RP just needs to make sure once FR is in place any contractor or trades person is aware not to breach any FR walls or if they do, how to make them good.

Yes, void more than 800mm.

That would only be if you are applying Cat L1 or L2 coverage? Not sure that would provide any benefit for the property types we are discussing?