MCP's inside flat entrances

[Fraudley]

Hello,

hope someone can help with this one. I'm struggling to understand the reasons behind the installing of MCP's actually inside the flats in a small block. The flats are all leasehold. There are MCP's as you would expect in the communal spaces. Obviously this is an issue regarding the test routine and gaining access to the flats in question. Has anyone ever come across anything similar? I'm probably missing something but 'computer says no'.

Thanks in advance

[colin todd]

The reason is quite clear-the world is totally mad and this is merely a manifestation of it.  Are you sure there is a need for any MCPs -even in the common parts- is this block not suitable for a stay put strategy?

Once you realize that the world is totally mad, everything seems a little brighter.

[Fraudley]

Thank you Colin. It's been driving me as mad as the world we live in. The building itself is very small, only 4 flats. MCP's in the common area as the business has long suffered from the ghastly overkill disease. Stay put it is. It's bizarre. In truth I was hoping someone as experienced as yourself would reply quoting from some obscure guidance or standard that I've not considered. I am going to request they be removed.

Thanks again Colin. Your wisdom is always appreciated.

[nearlythere]

I was involved in the fire safety aspects of a new apartment block of 3 storeys. At a meeting of minds I queried the "required" installation of a common fire alarm system. This requirement came from BC as the IO "liked to see one installed". I questioned the installation and  suggested the developer go back to BC to seek clarification and confirmation on this and, if BC insisted by liking one installed, a detailed assessment as to why and to what category.

Despite this the installation went in.

10 miles down the road, in another council area, BC there seem to have read the books and don't require common systems in purpose built apartments.

So perhaps BC might be able to shed light on why MCPs are installed in apartments never mind in common areas. 

[colin todd]

Almost, I dont believe you have any roads 10 miles long in Norn Iron.

Fraudles, the MCPs often come from the fact that there is an AOV operated by AFD.  The fire alarm contractor thinks he is installing a fire alarm system, but needs to realize that he is simply installing part of a smoke control system.

[wee brian]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509342/160321_Part_B_FAQ.pdf

Bottom of page 7

[kml]

Sounds like over provision and an opportunity to milk a bit extra from the installation, 5839 states

 In buildings with phased evacuation, additional manual call points are necessary
to ensure that a manual call point is located at every designated exit from an
alarm zone.
Ive also seen interconnected alarm systems installed where no one is able or willing to guarantee that the required level of compartmentation is present.

Colin - I seem to remember you getting into a taxi in Armagh one night after enjoying a few hours in the company of NIFRS' finest and heading back to Belfast - even considering the legendary generosity of the Scottish the fare must have seemed steep for a sub 10 mile journey.

[colin todd]

KLM, the Dutch, the fare was not too bad, as Captain Nairac paid half of it, with the intention of sharing the journey to Belfast, but then decided he didnt need it.  Not sure where he went after that.

[nearlythere]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/509342/160321_Part_B_FAQ.pdf

Bottom of page 7

They should make this guide available to BC officers.

[Fishy]

Sounds like over provision and an opportunity to milk a bit extra from the installation, 5839 states

 In buildings with phased evacuation, additional manual call points are necessary
to ensure that a manual call point is located at every designated exit from an
alarm zone.
Ive also seen interconnected alarm systems installed where no one is able or willing to guarantee that the required level of compartmentation is present.

I'd suggest that part of BS 5839-1 isn't referring to flats.

As an aside, there does appear to be some discrepancy between what BS 5839-1 describes as "phased evacuation" and what other standards (such as BS 9999) mean by the term.  Some of what's described (e.g. in clause 19.1 of BS 5839-1) might more correctly be called "progressive" evacuation.

[colin todd]

I beg to differ fish-face.  19.1 correctly describes phased evac.

[Fishy]

I beg to differ fish-face.  19.1 correctly describes phased evac.

It does indeed... but it also states: "Phased evacuation is also sometimes used in other types of building, irrespective of whether there are reduced stairway capacities (e.g. leisure complexes, shopping centres and transportation terminals). In these cases, the initial phase of evacuation may be horizontal, into a place of relative safety within the building".  That's what BS 9999 calls progressive evacuation, not phased.

[colin todd]

Not sure that BS 9999 is correct to do so.

[kml]

 I'd suggest that part of BS 5839-1 isn't referring to flats.

Fishy, I wasn't suggesting that this was why the MCP's  were installed. The point I was making is that if you bend the guides far enough you can often find a grey bit to use as a justification for over provision. The installer might equally have decided that these were "Final Exits" from the flats and thus required MCP's. $$$

[nearlythere]

I'd suggest that part of BS 5839-1 isn't referring to flats.

Fishy, I wasn't suggesting that this was why the MCP's  were installed. The point I was making is that if you bend the guides far enough you can often find a grey bit to use as a justification for over provision. The installer might equally have decided that these were "Final Exits" from the flats and thus required MCP's. $$$

Sometimes folks when I see the various categories of systems installed which are not referred to in 5839 I think it's just a case of stupidity, ignorance of the codes or an opportunity to get the arm in by some installers.