RRO and the Housing act

[johndoe]

If my untrained understading of the RRO is correct the RRO will take presednce over any fire precations legislation imposed by the new licensing of HMO`s (Articles 42 & 43) is this correct and can anyone see any problems?

[wee brian]

Neither takes precedence over the other but both enforcing authorities could ask for different things. Lets hope some common sense is applied.

I hope/pray that FRSs leave housing authorities to deal with HMOs unless they ask for help.

[martyn brandrick]

why is best for a local authority housing inspector best to deal with fire safety in a hmo than FRS.  we in scotland have a great deal to do with our mandatory licencing scheme and it works out well.  


we will provide a schedule to the authority on all fire safety matters which the owner will get a copy once completed and FRS satisfied,licence issued.

seems that housing up here require our services and it works well, why not down in england?

[val]

My very trained reading of the RRO suggests that this is absolutely true in respect of licensed or registered premises, (pubs, nightclubs, care homes, nurseries, etc) but that dual enforcement is the name of the game within HMO's.
Interesting concept and yes, we are trying to work out how to apply this in practise, with Housing Authorities.

[colin todd]

Party/Val, Many years ago, there were joint inspections, and it worked really well. Then it was decided that as it was not fire service legislation, this would not happen. At the same time, the then Home Office dropped taking on the writing of guidance, which is why 12/92 replaced then old dark blue guide from the home office on HMOs. A few years ago, Prof Anne Everton organized a seminar on the problems of HMO fire safety and enforcement. Delegates came from all over England and from Northern Ireland. She asked me why none came from Scotland and I told her the title was wrong for them-they dont have a big problem. Ability on HMO fire safety enforcement varies across housing authorities Brian. Reading are very good as they have lots of HMOs. In a rather posh area of England one HA is not nearly as good-a s352 notice (using standard wording) called up a standard for fire doors with which I was not familiar. It turned out to be a standard for hi-fi's . (seriously).

[PhilB]

In my experience the competence of housing officers in determining reasonable standards of safety varies widely across England & Wales. Some are very good some are not. Scotland have sorted the problem in HMOs.

The future for England & Wales is worrying in that they will using the Housing Health and Safety Rating system to determine if remedial works are necessary

This involves a housing officer using a palm held computer to enter figures based on benchmark standards. For fire safety standards the benchmark is ADB which is of course not appropriate for existing older buildings. The inspector assessess for example a staircase and scores it against ADB.

I asked ODPM if any new guidance was planned and they don't think so....perhaps the new guidance for hotels could be used.... was what I was told.

Dual legislation in these places is going to cause many problems.

[Bargain-Beer]

Hi i own a shop and have recently aqquired a Wormold Fire alarm system some detectors and sounders from Ebay i am looking to install the system myself i have layed out the system on the floor and connected the equipment up and all appears to be working fine no lights indicating any faults now the thing i am wondering is what type of cable i would have to use and also would the fire authorities have any issues with this there is no requirements at the moment stating that i have to have an alarm i just thought it may be a good idea

[Graeme]

I have seen lots of fire alarms on E-bay some of which belong in the skip.
You have bought a system with no history. i.e were the detectors in a unclean enviroment,are they over 10 years old etc.

If the system is addressable and has had it's site data cleared,it will sit happy with no faults.You would then need to auto learn the loops.

Not trying to sound like a git but the fact that you do not know what cable to use suggests to me you do not have the first idea on how install a fire alarm and i would advise to get someone who does.

[AnthonyB]

I certainly agree, get a proper electrician or alarm company to put it in.

Otherwise it's a waste of cash - & false security.

several systems on eBay belong in a bin because thats exactly where they came from - somewhere has a new system & the old one, instead of being scrapped as in the old days is sold on.

It's a gamble with such components on eBay as said, esp with the more complex items.

i've taken the plunge before for EL fittings & smoke heads for own use to save equipment costs, but always used a competent contractor to install and accepted a percentage failure rate in pre-installation testing.

remember - caveat emptor!

[PhilB]

Is it me or has this discussion veered off the original topic?

[colin todd]

No, Philip, This time it is not you. And is the tangent that has arisen really serious, or is it a wind up?

[val]

Phil,
We agree this time, dual enforcement will cause a dog's dinner with some Housing Authorities taking the lead and the HHSRS throwing up  cat 2 problems which they may or may not take action over. Other areas will have much more enthusiastic FRS trying to address problems in HMO's. Indeed, as FRS are meant to consider the IRMP Note 4, which shows HMO's very near the top of the risk tree, one could argue that FRS are obliged to inspect all higher risk HMO's

As for guidance, the guide which deals with sleeeping risk, (not just hotels), is meant to cover HMO's. Unfortunately the CFOA site has a draft document referencing 12/92 which, in my opinion, will never satisfy a risk based assessment of conditions within many HMO's.

[Chris Houston]

Hi i own a shop and have recently aqquired a Wormold Fire alarm system some detectors and sounders from Ebay i am looking to install the system myself i have layed out the system on the floor and connected the equipment up and all appears to be working fine no lights indicating any faults now the thing i am wondering is what type of cable i would have to use and also would the fire authorities have any issues with this there is no requirements at the moment stating that i have to have an alarm i just thought it may be a good idea

Stephen,

I strongly recommend that you use the services of a competant contractor to install such a system.

If you have any employees in your shop, there are indeed requirements that you have a system to warn them of a fire (such as the Fire Precautions (Workplace) Regulations).

To give you the straight answer, the cable would be as per the recommendations of British Standard 5839 Part 1 2002.  Ask yourself, "Am I familiar with this document?", if the answer is "no" then please take my advice about using someone who is.

[Shaun Doyle]

Keeping things to the original question.

One view point is that the HHSRS rating system deals with all sorts of hazards and not just fire. When it comes to fire has the rating system / Housing Act adequate power or teeth to properly deal with the fire issues and fire risk?

Effectively to prohibit / restrict the use (serious and immenent danger etc) of a HMO (old Section 10) or RRO article 31, consultation must be made to the Fire Authority, to be effective as there is nothing in the Housing Act 2004 that can deal with this? As everything still has a 21 day appeal period?

Therefore, working down from different levels of fire risk (and besides the RRO will be the primary fire safety legislation), it would be reasonable for the fire service and EHO's to work together to reduce the overall risk.

I think that the key to this "area of duplication" is to work out and agree a comprehensive protocol so as to rationalise resources so not to have duplication of work, and making sure that any high risk premises are considered, and risk control measures enforced by either enforcer, as necessary. If dialogue is happening between enforcers and if necessary by way of consultaion under Section 10(2) Housing Act or RRO Article 43 / 43 then progress will be made.

Customer practice in some areas of the UK works fine, and this will be relatively easy to resolve. It is in those areas where indifferenc is present and moves made to tackle this problem. Any guidance from ODPM or NAW should be aimed in this area to help control the risk as found. The sort of thing in mind is Procedural guidance for building Regs (Green book) would be something that would possible assist.

Just alternative points of view. Any thoughts?

[PhilB]

I totally agree Ivor. Don't forget however that Housing Act 2004 does give EHOs immediate powers to close HMOs similar to Sec.10 & Article 31.

The answer has got to be good partnership working but I still believe HMOs should be controlled by one authority using one effective piece of legislation.