DFS transfer to LAFS

[Pete]

RLFACTOR This is my first visit to Fire Net I am also a whole time Fire fighter working for a contractor under the unbrella of the D.F.&R.S. I have not got as far as whole time L.A.F.B. im having enough difficulties just trying to get my qualifications recognised to be considered for retained Fire-fighter

[Lee999]

Historically, transfers were never accepted from MOD/Military Brigades.

In my experience, there are some very real differences between the 2 jobs.

The only reason some services now consider the prospect is £££££££. Fact

[RLFACTOR]

Isn't it one thing all brigades try to do lee! Reducing the amount of money they spend on maintaining their quota of staff members in order to make more funds avaliable to promate community fire safety, therefore reducing the number of fire deaths in the uk.

 If this can be done by employing persons who have proved themselves competant in the required areas assesed at basic training, and who can also prove that they have been developing their knowledge and maintaining their competence to the required standard. Is this not a good thing, regardless of where the employee previously worked!

 The FACT is lee that you can work for a different brigade or establishment within the fire service and a variety of things will be different. However all brigades whether local authority or MOD have to meet the home office standards which is consistant between all the brigades within the uk. Thus meaning we all have to posses the core skills in order to progress in our careers.

 I do not think that the job is completly different. MOD fire fighters have the knowledge and understanding to deal with any emergency as do their local authority equivelants, this is achieved through necessary training and development in order to meet these standards. However I do understand that by working as a MOD firefighter many of our operational experiances will be different and varied from a county firefighter. But again this will occur between every brigade and every member if its workforce.

 Just because you dont experience a certain situation as frequently as somebody else it doesn't mean that you are in anyway less prepared for it does it lee?

 The transfer between private contractor fire services the MOD and local authoirity can be done and has been done, just aslong as you meet the required standard!

 Just a few things to consider ....

[Lee999]

rlfactor, you make your points very well, I do not seek to offend you in any way.

I do have a fairly (extremelly!!!!!!) good understanding of what goes on in the MOD FRS.

The fact i used to make my point was simple, before CFO's were forced to make financial cuts in all area's to please Mr Prescott, then they would never of considered allowing anybody to join a Watch until they had completed the recruitment process in full. Regardless of where they came from.( Im sure there were exeptions which sombody is about to point out!) LAFB to LAFB were only considered on merit and regually turned down.

I understand exacly how you feel, believe me.

I also hope that you manage to gain employment with a LAFB.

IPDS should be used as a tool to develop and recruit the most excellent of people into positions within an excellent FRS.

The fear of some is that, some Brigades will use it to take in any tom dick or harry who has had some fire service experience at some level somewhere, to get bums on seats! I do not in anyway include you in this group. But you know what i mean.

Good luck mate

[bignorman]

Transfers between DFRS and LA (and LA to DFRS)are now becoming very common with many FRS's accepting transferees who meet the required standards...
Myself and two colleagues have transfered from DFRS to LA within the last 12 months, I also know of others who are in the process....
Its not all about bums on seats etc.... It part of modernising...

PS... Willing to try to help if considering transfering to LA...Email..

[Lee999]

bignorman

It is ALL about bums on seats at a cut price.

[bignorman]

bignorman

It is ALL about bums on seats at a cut price.

Whilst everybody has their own opinions and views on different matters I must point out obvious points to bare in mind about DFRS transferees to LA FRS...

From the time of applying to the LA to the date of transfer took 12 months, and that was after a lot of letters, meetings and FBU backing.
I was one of over 25 potential candidates who filed an application to transfer and I was one of 8 Ffs invited along for an interview. I met all the criteria required for transfer and was one of only 4 Ffs to be accepted after the interview. Over 20 LA candidates applying for the positions available did not meet the criteria and were deemed unsuitable....

So as for "cut price bums on seats", not really true.

[Lee999]

It is true, im afraid you are not in a position to view this topic with any objectivity.

I have experience of the DFS, as i said earlier, so know exactly what kind of level they operate at. Im glad you got your "transfer" congratulations.

By the way, what made you apply for DFS rather that LAFB in the first place?

Or did you apply to the Brigade and not make it through?

Did almost every person on your watch apply and not make it?

If i were you, i would of prefered to make it through the same way as everybody else, not nipping in the back door. Although i dont think anyone would blame you for taking advantage of the current downturn in standards of recriutment due to one thing only............finance

Sorry if the truth hurts.

[bignorman]

Ouch!!!! Sour grapes I think....

( just the sort of response you'd expect from a spotty teenager or from a person who hasn't the slightest clue what they're on about!!!)

[Lee999]

Again,

Sorry if the truth hurts. I dont really have any inclination to join you on a stroll down the name calling comedy cul-de-sac, as i understand why you are so defensive with regards to this matter.

After all I am only voicing opinions which you clearly know are out there, no doubt on the Watch you have been posted onto.

My original point was generic, and really should stay that way. FRS's are only considering transfers from persons outside of the Fire Service (LA) for reasons connected to saving money. Historically everybody who joined would have to be trained to same level of competence before seeing a Watch.

As a Serving member of such a Watch, I am concerned (along with everbody on our Watch) that standards are being eroded right from point of entry. This has an effect on service delivery and morale.

IPDS in priciple is (in my opinion) a very good thing. It has transformed our development and training systems and gives Brigades the oportunity to recruit excellent people into the position they need to be in, fast. There are many good examples of this.

So IPDS should improve our Service, not erode standards.

I have no problem with Firefighters from Airport/industrial/MOD type backgrounds coming over, dont blame em, alot of us have done the same, but to suggest that it should be done in the way it has been done in some cases does nothing to improve matters.

Let me use MOD CTE at Manston for example.

Good training faclity, both domestic and aircraft. Im sure the courses follow the FSTM to some extent, but............

This is no substitute for attending the Brigade training centre.

Who instructs at MOD CTE? What real experience do they have? Who are they? This is the key.

You will struggle to find a member of any MOD station that has not attempted to join a (or several) LAFB. The very fact that for one reason or another they are still working for the MOD tells you why direct transfer is not a good idea.

The cream would always rise to the top, and the best guys always got their move...eventually. Managers at MOD establishments have always been frustrated by young guys and gals joining their station, doing a year then getting a job in the Brigade. That has always been the case. I have never met an MOD FF who wants to be an MOD FF. They are only there whilst they move through the recruitment stages of the LAFB. The ones who are left have given up.

So the only reason anybody would ever consider allowing such a transfer is.................................CASH.

The very idea that this saved cash could then be spent on CFS..........??

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

I am a Ff that transfered from LAFB to DFS and I can't belive how misinformed you are about the DFS. I still work retained and enjoy it (like most of the lads on my station) so im pretty up to date with most things and have had more experience than I care to talk about on this forum.

Firstly I think it was the best move that I have ever made & wish I had transfered before. The pay is in fact better when you account for all of the double & treble time you get on PHs ect...  The pension is good and you don't have to suffer the university 'career' idiots that joined LAFB to become a managers or the ones that do it to look good but have zero interest in actualy doing the job and have about as much get up and go as a sandbag! Thank god that there are still some good lads & Lasses getting in though.

As for never meeting an MOD Ff that wanted the job? You can't have talked to many! Not one lad on my station (over 30 of them) wants to join LAFB, in fact SIX of us have transfered from there. We know where we are better off. The DFS is more diffcult to get into with very few posts becoming vacant every year. Some of my former workmates are waiting for vacancies so they can apply!

As for the instructors: I found them to be just as good as LAFB training schools and in some cases even better. The facilities and LIVE fire training carried out there are in my opinion the best I have experienced. The majority of the LAFB Instructors I have delt with have never impressed me and I wouldn't want to work with most.

Lee999 you seem to have been either misinformed or have too high an opinion of yourself, sorry. I would recommend to any wholetime or retained Ff to try the DFS and get away from the greedy, low morale, union infested risk assesment culture that is 'Local authority'.

[Lee999]

Hi Pete, I did reply earlier, this is an amended version as I fell into the trap and DID take a stroll down the aformentioned cul-de-sac.(as you have)

I hear your points, dont really understand your point of view but you have clearly made some desisions which suit you personally. However my experience does not match yours.

Im not misinformed, i speak from experience, as for the comment about my self opinion, well......?

I am a professional fire officer, i wish to see the FRS that I love improve, when i see and hear things i am not in favour of, i speak out and give specific reasoning.

What i have to say isnt always what you want to hear, and occasionally my diplomatic skills do let me down.

I seems clear that you do not share my love of the FRS, i respect that, so please respect my opinion of the DFS. You have no reason to defend the DFS, just as i wont bother to defend the Fire Service, we both seem happy in our chosen occupations so should agree to differ.

Norman?

[rips]

I would like to add my opinion to the argument, sorry discussion with regards to DFS and LAFRS.

Initially after not getting into a LAFS (even though I was a Retained FF) I applied and successfully started with the DFS. During this time with the DFS I remained in the Retained, so my skill base was always kept current and valid.

Eventually after 4 years in the DFS I left to join a LAFRS. I left because I wanted to expoler other avenues of the Fire Service. I did not leave because I didn't enjoy working as a DFS FF. I loved every minute of it and learnt many a valuable skill that has assisted me (and my crews) in a LAFRS.

I had to do a full Trainee course when I moved to the LAFRS. The course had exactly the same syllabus (apart from thre Crash Rescue bits) as the DFS Trainee course at Manston. I am not big head enough to say I didn't learn anything second time round, as it was a massive, very expensive refresher!!!

What is wrong with someone from the DFS, MOD, Airport transferring across to a LAFRS? or vice versa

I have experienced personnel transferring across. The individual has completed a Training Needs Analysis against the role of a FF. (Remember the FF Role is the same across the board). The outcome of the TNA has produced a training plan for that individual. It could mean they need to attend either part, all or none of a Trainee course to have the knowledge and skills to become a competent memebr of a watch in a LAFRS.

It is not about bums on seats, it is about value for money. Why pay ££££'s to train a FF when it can be done for pennies?

[Cut Fire Service Pay]

I must point out here Lee999 that I did once, like you, Love the LAFS but having seen the state it is in now im glad im only retained. I left as I was sick of the bickering and management issues, sick of IRMP/IPDS/rank to role, ADCs........... The list goes on. I joined from the retained as I wanted to do the job but sadly thats becoming a side issue with most brigades and its endless risk assesment and the rest. Morale is at rock bottom.

As for stating that you know what level the DFS operate on, Im not too sure where you are going with that as I have only found good things so far. As I said before the level of training and competency is equal to any LAFS because they do the same basic training, they then go on to airfield crash firefighting which is something that LAFS don't do.

Its like any job, if its badly managed and you do nothing interesting all day and sit on your backside then you won't keep your staff. There are quite a few DFS stations that get very few fire calls and their training is limited and as a result they have become dis-interested and unmotivated. (small flying stations or storage for example) This is a mangement issue clearly but it doesn't mean that the whole of the DFS is like this. I know of several LAFS WT stations that do very few calls and their Ffs are the same! If you go to the bigger DFS stations you would be very supprised by the equipment and level of skill, particularly at the DFS American run stations.

[bignorman]

Lee999,

As I have said before, everyone to their own opinions, thats fair enough.. But surely before you start throwing insulting comments you should bother to find out facts first??

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"QUOTE"(lee999)  By the way, what made you apply for DFS rather that LAFB in the first place?

Or did you apply to the Brigade and not make it through?

Did almost every person on your watch apply and not make it?

If i were you, i would of prefered to make it through the same way as everybody else, not nipping in the back door. Although i dont think anyone would blame you for taking advantage of the current downturn in standards of recriutment due to one thing only............finance (lee999)
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I spent 13 years with the DFRS serving at various stations around the world, and must say I loved every minute of it.. One of the main reasons for leaving the DFRS is I used to spend 10 hours a week travelling to and from work and to be honest I had to either move nearer or change employers... I now have a 2 minute cycle ride to work.
I have taken a pay cut in the region of 15k and am employed at a station which is the quietest I have ever be stationed on. (I'm not knocking it, its the best move  I have made, 16 minutes travel a week!!)

So the move was for personal reasons... Now for your questions you asked..

"QUOTE"(By the way, what made you apply for DFS rather that LAFB in the first place?)
                  ...............................................................
The opportunity to travel the world and get paid vast amounts of money swung that one..(no contest at all)

"QUOTE"(Or did you apply to the Brigade and not make it through?)
                      ...................................................
I did look into my initial options, DFRS won..(reason above)

"QUOTE"(Did almost every person on your watch apply and not make it?)
                  .......................................................
Well, thats a strange question, cant see where youre coming from with that one?? (or even why you ask??)

"QUOTE"(If i were you, i would of prefered to make it through the same way as everybody else, not nipping in the back door. Although i dont think anyone would blame you for taking advantage of the current downturn in standards of recriutment due to one thing only............finance)
                     ....................................................
I did make it through the same as the other LA Ffs who applied to transfer (same application form, suitability interview and medical!!)
"Nipping in the back door"??. If I "nipped" in the back door it wouldn't of taken 12 months to transfer...
From what I have seen regarding the downturn in standards, you'll find a fair few long serving LA personnel are finding it hard to accept modernisation, surely getting "keen young blood" on stations can only be benificial??

As I have said, each and everyone of us is entitled to an opinion so please respect my reasons for "lowering my standards" by leaving the DFRS...
                     .........................................................

Also I must reply to another one of your quotes..
"QUOTE"(I have never met an MOD FF who wants to be an MOD FF. They are only there whilst they move through the recruitment stages of the LAFB. The ones who are left have given up.)

Hmmmmm, Please tell me if Im wrong, I can only imagine you haven't met many members of the DFRS.... Not many Ffs who earn nearly double that of a LA Ff want to leave! A few of my ex colleagues last year earned 3 times that of a LA Ff, they couldn't believe that I wanted to give it all up, until I explained about  my reasons for wanting out...
You may actually be right about the ones who are left have given up. ( But I very much doubt they'd see it the same way £££££££££££)