Legislation Scotland

[lacaca]

Do the F&R Services in Scotland acknowledge that under it's legislation, as opposed to End/Wales, the common areas of private flats/dwellings are not a relevant premises and as such are not Fire Risk Assessable?

[AnthonyB]

Seems to be kept a big secret, even some of the guidance seems to tip toe around that and imply they are when they are explicitly excluded beyond the maintenance of fire service facilities.

Loads of these premises get FRAs anyway, I dread to think the amount of money being spent on consultants for something not actually required.

Of course whether they should be subject to some ongoing fire safety process (but not done as messily as down here in E&W) is another debate in itself.

[Namerif]

lacaca, the answer to your question is yes.

AnthonyB, I cannot agree that it is a big secret. The Scottish guidance is pretty clear on the subject. Perhaps you could identify the guides which you think imply that the common areas of private dwellings in Scotland are relevant premises.

[AnthonyB]

Then why are organisations having FRAs done under the belief they had to as oppose to voluntarily as a corporate decision?

I'll admit it's clearer in the current consolidated guide now than it has been though (it was a while since I've needed to peruse the Scottish guidance, which to their credit they have extensively revised and updated unlike the DCLG Guides). The layout and style isn't the most user friendly though (nothing wrong with the technical content), the styles of the LGA & NFCC guides seem easier to read.

[Stobswellpond]

The legislation in Scotland with respect to Duty Holders over common areas is complex, and is a source of the problem. Section 23 of the fire safety (Scotland) Regulations require that measures for the protection of fire fighters are maintained in an efficient states and in efficient order and in good repair. However you will not discover if it is in good repair if you do not carry out a FRA.
The SFRS recommend that a FRA is carried out, and the Scottish Government as part of its Single Building Assessment programme require a FRA on the common areas is carried out.
The requirement to keep communal areas clear of combustible substances is covered by section 93 of the Scottish Civic Government Act  and is enforceable by the local authority not the SFRS.
The requirement to maintain the systems to protect fire fighters in communal areas lies with the duty holder, however it is not clear in the tenancy system if the building factor is responsible or the property owners individually or collectively.
I suspect that as a result of the Single Building Assessment programme, there will be changes in legislation in many areas.

[AnthonyB]

You don't need a full FRA to audit if the rising mains & fire lifts, etc are being serviced.

Recommending an FRA is all very well if that and the associated general fire precautions can't be enforced - perhaps there needs to be a rethink on the legislative approach

[Stobswellpond]

As you are aware, measure's for the protection of fire fighters go beyond the rising mains and firefighting lifts. Some of the FRA's have revealed that-
Yes rising mains are not being inspected or tested.
The smoke clearance system to the escape stair which is also the stair fire fighters would use to access the bridgehead and fire is not, designed, installed or maintained.
There is no clarification if the lifts are fireman's lifts or fire fighters lifts
The fire doors to the single staircase are not inspected nor maintained, and on one instance a homeowner has removed the door, the same owner who has but a big American fridge freezer directly in front of the dry riser outlet
Dampers to ductwork in the protected lobbies can be shut down by owners, and the status of the dampers are unknown (Open or Closed)

Yes a full review and holistic review of the legislation is required.

[colin todd]

The Scottish Fire and Rescue Service are abundantly aware of the scope of their legislation and it would be rather silly to suggest anything to the contrary. Interestingly, without legislation relating to the common parts, it is virtually unknown for any resident of a PBBF in Scotland to die beyond the flat of fire origin. Nor do they need a new regulator to act as building control verifiers for high risk resi buildings (but then to be fair neither did England, its not like HSE have ever covered themselves with glory in enforcing fire safety legislation).

Those who exalt philosophy as a noble concept and scorn plumbing as a humble profession end up with the philosophy and plumbing they deserve-neither the pipes nor theories will hold water.

A society that under values, under pays, under resources and under trains local authority building control, for whom I have some respect, ends up with the standard of building control it deserves.  Maybe HSE could take on plumbing too.