Author Topic: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.  (Read 697 times)

Offline Tom Sutton

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Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« on: February 11, 2019, 08:21:15 AM »
Fire Safety in purpose-built blocks of flats, type 1 and 2 involve the common area therefore subject to the RR(FS)O, type 3 and 4 involve the flats as well, which is not subject to the RR(FS)O.

If you have to record the FRA, which is most likely, then part is subject to legislation, part goodwill inspection do you have one or two reports?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline John Webb

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 05:16:49 PM »
I'd be inclined to add an appendix to the RR(FS)O report noting anything found under the 'goodwill' side of the inspection.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline SeaBass

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2019, 08:36:14 AM »
A type 1 assessment includes the flat entrance doors. To make a meaningful appraisal of them, you would need to open at least a representative number in order to confirm the presennce of door closers, the tickness and, hopefully the construction of the door. In doing so, we would also take note of any detection within the flat hallway, and ask the occupant what other AFD is installed and what FS information they have been given. The findings are all compiled into the type 1 report, as the RP needs to advise flat lease holders of their duties in respect of the safety of the rest of the block, and the risk that they atre placing themselves and family at by not  having suyitable AFD. 

Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2019, 03:07:57 PM »
This maybe so but it is not subject to the RR(FS)O therefore goodwill advice, there as been a number of cases were the  tenant has refused access and the RP had to use other means to take the tenant to court to gain access.(upgrading front doors and such). You could still achieve your aims using John Webb's suggestion or two separate reports.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 03:10:57 PM by Tom Sutton »
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Fishy

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2019, 05:41:43 PM »
I don't 'do' resi FRAs, so forgive my confusion, but why on earth would anyone give 'goodwill' information in a FRA?  You either choose the type (1-4) or it's instructed to you, & the report should cover everything necessary according to that chosen (or instructed) type? If no-one tells you what type to do, you simply need to cover the legislative minimum?

If someone wanted me to go beyond what legislation requires, I'd ask them for a clear brief & a set of technical requirements to work to, & I'd include the results in the same report (though I might organise the report to make it evident what's required to comply with legislation, & what relates to the 'additional requirements, whatever they might be).

Am I misinterpreting what 'goodwill inspection' means?


Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 08:10:04 PM »
When I've been involved in a 3 or a 4 the client has ultimately been responsible for the flats so the commentary in theses areas has been for Housing Act compliance as well as RRO, all in the same report but differentiated between which compliance aspect it relates to.

And even if the client is genuinely common area only for responsibility the very nature of a 3 or 4 requires commentary on Housing Act issues so they would be reported on but clearly highlighted as not RRO related.

The only time that I've strayed into recommendation is in a type 1 where some of the flat samples have no detection at all and are rental and I suggest the TMC reminds it's members of obligations some of them may have under the Smoke and Carbon monoxide alarm (England) Regulations 2015 (obviously if an English site). If it's owner occupied then the owner has usually let me in so I mention it's wise to have one & verbally direct them to FRS Community Safety teams as appropriate for a Home Safety Check
Anthony Buck
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Offline Tom Sutton

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 11:26:15 AM »
My understanding of goodwill advice is advice given that is not backed up with legislation, and in a block of flats the common areas are subject to the RR(FS)O, the flats are not. I accept there can be other legislation that applies but not th FF(FS)O and FRAs are done under the RR(FS)O.

Considering the spirit of the Enforcement concordat you should be giving your client advice that clearly states if the advice is subject to RR(FS)O, in the case of a T3/T4 type inspection it is not but I do accept other legislation may apply.

My interest is how do you make it clear to the RP that the advice concerning the the flats are not subject to the RR(FS)O. Do you have two reports, use appendices or simple put in the FRA that items concerning the flats are not subject to the RR(FS)O. 
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 10:17:08 PM »
Each action has the relevant legislation against it so it's clear what is RRO & which is HA/S&COR,most of our work is Type 1's so it doesn't come up too often
Anthony Buck
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Offline alfire

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Re: Recording FRA in purpose-built blocks of flats.
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2019, 08:54:02 AM »
In regard to FRAs of blocks I only ever carry out Type 1.
The report will make this clear, in both the introduction and later, and it will also give a brief explanation of the other FRA types and where these might be considered.
When looking at existing blocks it is often not possible to sample any flat doors, the flat may be unoccupied or the occupier does not respond, and the FRA will comment on what the FED appears to be and contain a recommendation that the RP confirm this by way of available records or inspection.

The report will record the detection and alarm provision within common areas, where this can be confirmed, and it will advise, in the commentary, that the RP should confirm the provision within the flats, where this has not been possible, and give guidance on what an appropriate provision would be.

This week I looked at two new purpose built blocks of three floors. They have both been provided with a Pt1 in the common areas , with HD in the flat hallways, and a Pt6 in each flat to an LD3 standard.
They were advised in an off plan initial assessment that a Pt1 was not required.