Author Topic: HD in Hotel bedrooms  (Read 18743 times)

messy

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« on: November 11, 2005, 08:45:37 PM »
Can anyone tell me why heat detectors are permitted (in certain circumstances) in Hotel rooms?

I have heard various explanations as to why this is allowed but would be interested in the response from members of this forum.

Graeme

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2005, 09:31:43 PM »
There is a variation of a cat L1 that applies to the install of co and heat detection in bedrooms that relates to an L3 which allows any afd type in the rooms of hotels.

The hd are usually designated smoking rooms

Offline PhilB

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2005, 11:10:34 AM »
The Lilac Guide( Hotel Guide) which FRS used to use when certificating hotels recommended the use of heat detection in bedrooms to try and keep false alarms down.

Offline colin todd

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2005, 02:11:40 PM »
Messy, this goes right back to two things. The early days of the FP Act and research carried out on behalf of the Home Office in the mid 1980s. When the FP Act was first introduced the chance that you would die from fire if you spent one night in a hotel was approx 10 times that if you spent one night at home. The Act, the designation order and the early guidance was not intended to protect the individual in the room of origin, but only to protect the means of escape for others. ( Thus the person could kill himself if he wanted, same as at home, but not kill anyone else.) Early guidance from the Home Office was that you did not need ANY AFD for this purpose, but all you needed was a break glass manual system. This alone was very effective in reducing fire deaths dramatically-see 1970s fire stats and you will note a step change in fatalities. In practice, as time progressed, people were using AFD in hotels, BUT (and this is really important, Messey) the goal had not changed-the objective was still as set out above. To meet '' the objective'', AFD was put in the corridors only. ( There are still hotels with only the manual systems or only the AFD in corrdiors even today). It was assumed that the AFD in the corridors would operate early enough to allow those beyond the room of origin to escape. Then, around the mid 1980s, the Home Offcie began to ask the question as to whether everyone was sure that the above practice did indeed meet the objective. Specifically, they wanted to know whether the detectors in the corridors would operate early enough to allow escape of those beyond the room of origin before the corridor was smoke logged.
So FRS were contracted to carry out very elegeant research work, using a full scale mock up of a corridor with rooms of at Cardington. They set fires in a room and observed conditions in the corridor, with detectors 15m apart. In general, they found the set up was often ok and people were given early enough warning. However, under certain circumstances, which included no intumescent strips on the doors but just old BS 459-3 doors (which are not used now anyway!!!) they coculd smoke log the corridor before an alarm was given. Further research showed that this depended on the size of the gap around the door. Sods law was that a 3mm gap was worst case, and further work showed that the problem was caused not so much by the hot buyoant gases from the fire but from the pyrolisis of the timber at the head of the door, which resulted in relatively cool, heavy tarry smoke entering the corridor and not having enough bouancy to operate detectors 15m apart.
In truth, this was all very interesting but there was no anecdotal evidence whatsoever of this causing fatalities in hotels, and in any case bedroom doors all have intumescent strips. So, many took the view that it was all very interesting, but so what (including an ex senior fire safety man from your brigade).
There were, howvever, 3 options in dealing with the theoretical problem. One was to rely on the intumescent strips. (Counter arguement was that they might not be fitted.) Two was to ensure that a dtector was always fitted in the corridor close to the bedroom door, as the problem only arose in a lenghty corridor with the detectors 15m apart. (Counter arguement, makes for an awful lot of dtectors in corridors, so might as well go for third option.) Third option was to put detectors in rooms. BIG POINT HERE: These detectors were NEVER intended to protect the person in the room of origin but to protect everyone else to a much better standard.
Ultimately, it was thr 3rd option that was selected. WHY? Because the research showed that even a heat detector in the room would buy about 9 minutes (in the particular reasearch set up) over and above smokes in the corridor alone.
It was purely this work that led to the invention of the Cat L3 system. It does not protect the individual in the room but ensures loadsa warning before the common escape routes are threatened. Thus BS 5839-1 was revised to say (as it still does today), these detectors can be of any type, heat, smoke or CO. Moreover, since the only objective is to warn others before a whacking great fire occurs in the room to the extent that a 30 min FR door is burning away, the detectors can even just be heat detectors on the wall near the door.
Home Office policy was to agree that any detector will do the job , but heat should be chosen because of the need for false alarms (except for disabled rooms and dormitories).This was perfectly logical advice that really still stands today.
Problem was that a lot of fire authorities (including yours) got the entirely wrong end of the stick and though that this new call for detectors in bedrooms was because the objective had changed and we were now protecting the individual in the room of origin. This was not correct and it was some years before the penny dropped and, in the case of your brigade, a chap (who is now a very well respected consultant but was in your fire safety policy group at the time) issued a gudiance note telling the I/Os to stop demanding smoke detectors in bedrooms.
To this day, it remains a mess, Messy, in the sense that a lot of this was lost on new I/Os throughout the country. Many still think the detectors are to protect the occupant. Some accept heat without question. Some accept heat and recommend smoke. Some demand smoke because they dont understand the background.
What about the poor guy in the room of origin? The record shows he doesnt die anyway. In a study carried out in fires over a 5 year period prior to introducing detectors in bedrooms, not a single sould died from fire in any star rated hotel in the UK. Thos who died in non-star rated accommodation were mostly in hostel-like properties, and those who died in the room of origin were committing suicide or were out of it on drugs or alcohol in the main.
So those who do require s/d in bedrooms are trying to save the lives of those who never die anyway---to the detriment of the safety of others, which is compromised by the tendency to ignore alarms because of the rate of false alarms, to introduce staff alarms to delay signals from s/d (so might as well have hd) etc etc.
Ignore hype from people about sophisticated systems ignoring phenomena that cause false alarms, as, in the case of the average system, it is bunkum. In a recently opened hotel, there were 50 false alarms in the first week as a result of steam from en suite showers and kettles.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

messy

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 08:13:34 PM »
Colin:

I was hoping for a detailed response, but I'll make do with yours!!

The details in your reply do supply the flesh on the bones of what I have been told or read, so I am grateful to you (& the others who have replied).

Although I understand the rationale and evidence which allows for HD in bedrooms, it still doesn't seem right. I would have thought that SD and TDS, when adequately managed, extends life cover to all whilst providing a system to reduce UwFS

Maybe it's because I am approaching the issue from a ex operation firefighter's point of view where the objective at any fire is to reduce the risk to ALL by evacuating or rescuing.

Whereas the British Standard seems to be more scientific/mathematical, and uses probabilities and data which ultimately 'allows' the odd fatality.

It strikes me another example of why it's no accident that the initials B.S. stand for British Standards and Bullsh1t

Graeme

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2005, 08:32:52 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
. In a recently opened hotel, there were 50 false alarms in the first week as a result of steam from en suite showers and kettles.


not too mention the purple rinsers with talc and hairspray.
and folks going o.t.t with deoderants.

Offline Allen Higginson

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2005, 08:55:18 PM »
Ahhh,that'll be the Lynx effect then?

messy

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2005, 09:29:55 PM »
Spray more  - Get more (False alarms that is!!)

Offline Allen Higginson

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2005, 09:50:17 PM »
How very true - had spurious false alarmd from a hotel on repeated occassions,all within a 4 hour window during the morning but in different rooms.The fact that it was occuring at the same times indicated an enviromental cause - housekeeper freshening up smelly rooms with air freshener!

Graeme

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2005, 10:29:28 PM »
or the classic
leave the bathroom door open while having a bath,so you can talk to your wife or watch tv in the mirror.

Offline colin todd

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 12:10:32 AM »
or watch your wife having a bath in the mirror
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline colin todd

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2005, 12:11:53 AM »
Messey: two points. One is that no one dies in room of origin in hotels in practice. Two, do you have a smoke detector in your bedroom at home?
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

messy

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2005, 09:04:01 AM »
Colin:  I see your point.

However, you are wrong about watching the wife bathe via the mirror. I tried it this morning and noticed two things. The mirror mists up and she got a little grumpy with me leaving the bathroom door open

Offline AnthonyB

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 10:43:20 PM »
Quote from: colin todd
Messey: two points. One is that no one dies in room of origin in hotels in practice. Two, do you have a smoke detector in your bedroom at home?

Fair point - I only have a smoke detectors in my bedroom to act as a sounder to wake me up, if I was usinga commercial fire system rather than a set of linked domestic heads I's probably only have a sounder
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fred

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HD in Hotel bedrooms
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2005, 12:00:38 PM »
To follow on from Colin's potted history of detection in hotel bedrooms (required reading for all potential FSO's and fire risk assessors) the next point to be raised is inevitably the different emphasis on the provision of protective and preventive measures under the RRFSO.

The provision of detection under the RRFSO is all about "to the extent that is appropriate" and "to safeguard the safety of relevant persons"

If a 'relevant person' is anyone in the building then that must include sleeping guests.  Is it therefore reasonable to argue that as fires do not start in hotel bedrooms then none of them require detection ?

Smoke detectors (only) should therefore be provided in just the means of escape ... but there should be a sounder in every bedroom.....

The provision of a heat detector in a bedroom would not fulfill the requirements of the RRFSO at all.

Food for thought ..