FRS charging for their services

[Chris Houston]

In what circumstances can a FRS charge for their services?

In what circumstances do FRS usually charge for their services?

[messy]

In London

We (may) charge for:
 
*Chemical incidents
*Commercial (NOT domestic) floodings
*Some minor special services (making safe and filling tanks etc)

The current charge is around £270+ VAT per appliance per hour. It's set to rise to £293. (Consider that even a simple chemical job uses 5/6 appliances for 2/3 hours and it's a good little earner)

We cannot charge for fires or false alarms however caused (including by AFD)

We are considering charging for attending RTAs (from your lot Chris - the insurance companies) and perhaps for lift incidents

And of course we charge for certain FS work, including fire certs, FI reports, interviews with staff, photographs etc etc

Its all open for debate right now in this age of the modernised FRS, and things could have changed in the time it's taken you to read this!!!

[colin todd]

Whatever they charge for you , messey, I am sure it is money well spent.

[Chris Houston]

What about fire and rescuse services in Scotland attending road traffic accidents?

[fireftrm]

Charging: s 19 Fs act 2004 make sprovison for the Secretary of State to authorise FRAs to charge for their services. The first such order, applying to all FRAs is in consultation and so not yet in force. Road traffic collisions (as they now must be called) are a part of our duties and the Sce of State has made claer he will not presently authorise any charging for these. Under no circumstances (except fires at, or under the, sea) may the Secretary of State authorise a FRA  to levy a charge for extinguishing fires, or protecting life and property in the event of fires. . No charge may be levied for emergency medical asisstance either. The charge may be imposed on, or recovered from, a person other than the person in respect of whom action is taken by the authority

The consultation document is here: http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1125699#TopOfPage The document was for comments by MAy 2004, I am not aware of the order having been made, nor can it be found on the ODPM website.

Note that future charging for RTCs and FADs (in particular) is possible, I would envisage work on FADs as these are a drain on FRA recources.

As I see it, reading the FS act 2004, a FRA charging for anything may be acting illegaly unless they hold an authority from the Secretary of State to do so. Another point is that the act makes it a requirement that any charges are not set above the actual cost of providing the service "In setting the amount of a charge, the authority must secure that, taking one financial year with another, the authority's income from charges does not exceed the cost to the authority of taking the action for which the charges are imposed". So the actual cost to the authority should not include any element for the wages (unless persons are brought in on additional payments to provide the service, or maintain other services as a result), the appliances (again unless others are purchased to cover) or equipment used (again unless it was purchased ofr this action) - an interesting test case awaits somewhere, I have no doubt. I really doubt that it COSTS LFB £270 per appliance per hour to deliver any such service. Whilst that may be what they determine to be the cost of the crew and vehicle per hour they are not having this cost imposed on them for taking the action as theses costs would already be there, fuel etc may be all that can be legally charged?

[fireftrm]

The Scottish Executive are similarly consulting on charging for their FRA : http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/04/0792221/22222

[Chris Houston]

So, I see that Scotland is considering it, does that mean that the info in the first of your two posts applies to Scotland too?

[fireftrm]

As far a I am aware - you would need to read the Scottsish Fire Act and remember that some of the 'information' was my personal opinion.

[Chris Houston]

Thanks for your help, I am in correspondance with someone who said that FRS charged his friend money to attend a road traffic accident, which his friends insurers' paid.  I challenged this, as it was my understanding that ambulances did this, but not FRS.  So I said I would look into this and let him know the situation, it was in Scotland.  So if anyone can clarify if this sort of thing happens, would be most grateful.

[Paul]

Doesn't happen in Cheshire, except for the usual SSC type incidents, for which the Crew Manager must make those in need of the crew aware of those charges prior to starting work.

As far as I am aware this has happened for years.

[fireftrm]

Depending upon when this happened there is absolutley no reason why a FRS couldn ot have charged, only since the two FS acts has the RTC become a duty. After all if the ambulance service charge why not the FRS? If the insurance company paid then it is for them to look into, surely? Knowing how they do their absolute best to wheedle their way out of paying they must have accepted this one, if they had anyway to get out of it they would have!

[Chris Houston]

I would not know what stance his insurers took, or who they might be.

I can't speak on their behalf, but I would disagree with your perception of insurers.  In my dealings with them, I have found the opposite to be true, that they tend to pay out when they could have argued against doing so in order to maintain good relationships with their customers.

[Paul]

Your not the man from the Pru are you Chris??

[Chris Houston]

Your not the man from the Pru are you Chris??

I work for an insurance company, but this is not a work related question.  

I'd rather avoid mentioning who I work for, as I am not a spokesperson for them or for insurance companies generally.

[Paul]

Chris didn't mean to put you on the spot, was tongue cheek rather than anything else.