Author Topic: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage  (Read 357 times)

Offline hammer1

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2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« on: August 12, 2019, 03:44:33 PM »
Afternoon all

A client has recently stated a change in approach in regards to AFD coverage to 2 storey conversions (pre 1991).

Previously it was Grade D wireless detection within communal area interlinked with heat detection in each flat with standalone smoke detection within each flat.

They have now changed approach to no longer have smoke detection within communal area but just the heat detection within each flat interlinked.


The buildings in question are normally Victoria type builds, timber flooring and lathe plaster walls/ 9mm plasterboards, timber staircases (can be difficult to check the underside of staircases if no access to flats). The flats on the ground floor normally open up into the living room with no lobby, the communal area is normally the entrance hallway within some having communal stairs to 1st floor)

They have stated main reason for this approach is the assumption of 1st floor windows being used as escape windows.

Just thought I see what your thoughts are on this approach and if this is common.

Thanks

Offline Dinnertime Dave

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 10:47:07 PM »

A very brave person making this decision. The HA I worked for had 1100 converted properties, we had approximately 5 fires a year in communal areas. Detected early, no injuries. Difficult to escape through a window if you don't wake up.

Why move away from recognised guidance other than to save money?  Try standing up in court to justify it.

Offline hammer1

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 01:45:56 PM »
Totally agree, especially when the ground floor FEDs normally enter into the living room, no point waiting on the H/D in the kitchen to provide early warning. Also with the recent fire stats on fires that spread beyond room of origin/ floor of origin in these types of builds backs up justification on smoke detection in communal area, makes you wonder what they think so special about this area that makes it safe to have no coverage?

Also this reliance on window escape in these types of builds worry me as most would be timber sash windows with no doubt layers of paint/hard to open, not to mention the type of residents.

Offline lyledunn

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 11:47:49 AM »
So are you saying that the original system would cause an alert on the triggering of either the detectors in the communal areas or the HDs in the flat thus making the HD in the flat to be the only alert for the occupants of a flat? Don?t like that or the ridiculous notion to omit ASDs in communal areas. Do like the mixed system for this type of property where communal area served by L2 system with HDs behind each flat door but with additional sounders  in the flats as necessary along with stand alone in each flat.
The HA here (NIHE) now require landlords to develop a PEEPS strategy before a licence is issued. Would love to see how that fits with your escape through window philosophy.

Offline Messy

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 12:40:57 PM »
I cannot imagine changes to a fire safety strategy being acceptable where it leads to reliance of first floor windows as a MOE where the previous strategy didn't  :o :o

(Is that what you are saying??)

Thank God I don't do housing any more!!


Offline hammer1

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2019, 07:42:04 PM »
So are you saying that the original system would cause an alert on the triggering of either the detectors in the communal areas or the HDs in the flat thus making the HD in the flat to be the only alert for the occupants of a flat? Don?t like that or the ridiculous notion to omit ASDs in communal areas. Do like the mixed system for this type of property where communal area served by L2 system with HDs behind each flat door but with additional sounders  in the flats as necessary along with stand alone in each flat.
The HA here (NIHE) now require landlords to develop a PEEPS strategy before a licence is issued. Would love to see how that fits with your escape through window philosophy.

No, there would be stand alone detection smoke which would alert the occupant of the flat, the heat detection in entrance hallway would be interlinked to the other flats and communal area, so in line with your description of the mix system. Now they are wanting just to interlink the heat detection in the kitchens and remove communal detection which is ridiculous in my view, especially when you consider typical layout of ground floor flats for these types of builds.

Agree with the last point on windows as MOE, surely we should be moving away from the old type 1 approach and not consider relevant persons, very worrying if this is just a cost saving exercise especially when a percentage of these types of builds already have mix systems installed.

Offline Seetek

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2019, 05:46:28 PM »
So are you saying that the original system would cause an alert on the triggering of either the detectors in the communal areas or the HDs in the flat thus making the HD in the flat to be the only alert for the occupants of a flat? Don?t like that or the ridiculous notion to omit ASDs in communal areas. Do like the mixed system for this type of property where communal area served by L2 system with HDs behind each flat door but with additional sounders  in the flats as necessary along with stand alone in each flat.

No, there would be stand alone detection smoke which would alert the occupant of the flat, the heat detection in entrance hallway would be interlinked to the other flats and communal area, so in line with your description of the mix system. Now they are wanting just to interlink the heat detection in the kitchens and remove communal detection which is ridiculous in my view, especially when you consider typical layout of ground floor flats for these types of builds

Another thought is that the proposed system if I read it right is to connect pt6 heats in each flat. I can see how a lay person might think this to be an option but there would be no warning of damaged/removed detectors etc. which we often see.

I think the consensus would be that the proposal you describe is not an acceptable option.

Offline AnthonyB

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Re: 2 storey conversions - AFD coverage
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 07:24:15 PM »
Do they have a friendly AI signing all this off?

I've seen some unusual departures from the norm over the years and whilst some have a properly thought out fire strategy that shows it can still work others have nothing like that but the old 'it got signed off' rolled out....
Anthony Buck
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