Author Topic: PQA's  (Read 67837 times)

Offline firefightercw1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
PQA's
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2007, 07:13:58 AM »
Thanks for that Lawman, like i said i have pirnt out of PQA's from IPDS site abd started to look at it last night, picking out key words and such. Realise theres alot to remember and probably impossible to remember it all. but your system seems great to follow. I've been told that they will ask questions that they ask on my application form? should i remember those just or do as you suggested and think of more scenerios??

Offline firefightercw1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
PQA's
« Reply #31 on: August 08, 2007, 07:18:58 AM »
did you recently have a interview Lawman?? with MOD or Local? did you get in? and how long did it take to hear back after interview if you have??

Offline Dinnertime Dave

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
PQA's
« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2007, 01:11:56 PM »
I think The Lawman`s advice sounds good I would also have alternative scenerios aswell. I have it on good advice that one question that catches the unprepared out is the "that`s fine, but can you give me another example of when you........."

Offline firefightercw1

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
PQA's
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2007, 11:01:59 AM »
Cheers lads, any more advice would be great. Revising those PQA's everyday and trying to remember them, and the key words. i know it sounds obvious stuff but its the wording that i got to remember.

Offline marky

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
PQA's
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2007, 06:53:42 PM »
Dear Sirs,
Just an e-mail for you information about how terrible these PQA'S are.
I am a full time serving firefighter, and have just failed an interview to join another brigade Urban Search & Rescue Team.I have now been serving for just short of 10 years and have gained my qualifications in USAR, yet i was unsuccessful due to not being able to fulfill all the relevant PQA'S and a presentation at an interview.My point being that i was not asked about how good i am at my job and USAR.All the other candidates were not trained in USAR and have no experience whatsoever in the field yet one of them passed the interview (How wrong is that?).You just have to hope that interview techniques become a useful tool within the job, though in my experience practical help far outways presentation skills!So despite studying hard to get the relevant qualifications, unless you answer these silly politically correct questions correctly, 'tough luck '.What is this fire service coming to? LET'S PUT THE PUBLIC AT RISK BUT DONT WORRY THEY CAN ANSWER A PQA CORRECTLY.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
PQA's
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2007, 07:16:26 PM »
Sorry to hear you were unsuccessful marky.
Did you know about the PQAs before you applied?
Clearly the qualifications that you have were not essential pre-requisites for the job but the PQAs were- this should have been set out in the application pack?. Your skills must have a huge value though. I guess if you could meet the PQAs and with your qualifications you could wipe the floor with any other applicant.

I'm a bit of a dinosaur myself but learned one thing - if you cant beat em join em.

It seems to me that the PQAs are all about this. You can train somone to do anything but its much harder to change inbuilt entrenched attitudes prejudices or predispositions. They would rather have someone with no knowledge of the job but with all  the right person skills and attititudes measured by the PQAs that they can then train from scratch to do the job. Trouble is if thats all they check it is years before that person makes an effective contribution to the team, and it ignores the fact that some very nice clever intelligent politically aware and articulate people are absolute duffers  and a total liability when it comes to the sharp end.

Offline marky

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
PQA's
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2007, 11:06:43 AM »
Kurnal
Thanks for your comment,  i feel that it has been a bit of a kick in the teeth that i have studied hard to gain these qualifications and that they have not allowed me to be in with a chance unless i get these PQA's right, but although i am feeling a bit down at the moment i will bounce back. It is really there loss. Once again thanks for your comment your last statement really sum's it all up.

Offline hannahvca

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
PQA's
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2007, 12:23:08 PM »
Hi
i hope you don't mind me posting, but i was hoping i might be able to help.  If its any consolation the PQAs aren't just randomly generated 'management speak', they were developed from a huge research project which involved interviewing FRS staff to find out which underlying skills were important to the peopel who do the job. they are supposed to represent what you think. Kurnal is right though about trainability and entrenched attitudes, but i can really feel for all of you who have lots of experience and feel the system is holding you back. if its any help I'm developing a practice mini- application form which probably won't hold any surprises if you have had guidance at your FRS, but the part that might help is that i will write you a feedback report to help you see where you might need to improve, and how to do so! I am looking to trial it with a few people to see how useful you find it and find out what you need so if this woudl help then get in touch hannahvallance@vca.uk.com. I'm developing a whole range of support products to try to overcome people feeling like this about their promotion opportunties, and am happy to hear from you with your comments about what would help
hannah

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
PQA's
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2007, 10:32:59 AM »
Hi Hannah
Thanks for the information. As I am no longer a serving member pleasse forgive and educate me if I am completely out of touch. I retired from the service in early 2005 just as this policy was coming into being - as a middle manager I dont ever recollect being interviewed as part of the huge research project but I do remember a number of people being seconded away from brigades to work on the IPDS project - I assume this is the work you are referring to.

What concerns me is that the pendulum appears to have swung from one extreme to another. From a promotion system based entirely on technical competence measured by statutory exams followed by rather unscientific and inconsistent  interviews used to determine personal qualities  we now  appear to  focus more or less entirely on PQAs with little or no need to assess an individual's technical competence.

Certainly some improvements to the recruitment and promotion selection procedures were necessary but in my view - and only based on what I hear-  we seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

Please educate me if I am completely out of touch with reality. It would not be the first time!!!

Offline Nearlybaldandgrey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
PQA's
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2007, 09:17:39 PM »
The PQA's as Hannah points out are the result of much research.

The answers you give are cross checked against constructs or indicators so you need to know what they are looking for in an answer. The most likely indicator of future behaviour in a situation is provided by looking at your past and the PQA's are geared to areas of work, such as working in a team, working in a stressful situation etc etc.

The biggest problem is the fact the people don't actually understand what is being asked ...... or know how to respond in a specific way.

I've been through PQA interviews as part of the promotion proces and I've also been an interviewer ...... it's not easy for the unititiated!

As part of a promotion process, a role related test should be used aswell such as an incident command or training scenario which does test technical knowledge. It seems that some processes don't have this.

Offline hannahvca

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
PQA's
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2007, 07:06:20 PM »
Kurnal
for someone who has retired i think you have it more or less! I  know a lot of people who are a lot more fuzzy about the whole thing, which is a shame. baldyman also seems to know his/her(?!) stuff, being an interviewer can help get your head around it, but these interviews can seem 'unscientific' if they are used by people not trained to do so. there is method in the way they are designed, although they do still have limitations, which is why the ADCs hold so much weight.

my understanding is that the PQAs assess potential, and the development programmes develop these skills within the FRS context of technical application, amongst all the other things that are vital to the role. and there are a lot of things other than technical competence which are vital to the running of such a complex organisation, and its this running of the FRS which is what management roles need to be able to do effectively.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
PQA's
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2007, 08:38:01 PM »
Quote from: baldyman
The biggest problem is the fact the people don't actually understand what is being asked ...... or know how to respond in a specific way.

I've been through PQA interviews as part of the promotion proces and I've also been an interviewer ...... it's not easy for the unititiated!
Baldyman I take this to indicate that with a little coaching persons can learn to spout the correct answer and display the correct attitude
parrot fashion.  If as Hannah says, the PQAs are meant to assess potential, does this not undermine the whole philosophy? My understanding was that the system was intended to identify persons whose attitudes, qualities, morals and ingrained skills could break the traditional "unsatisfactory" mould of the fire services as percieved by George Bain in his fleeting and politically motivated  review.
If the PQAs can be failed initially but then "passed" with a little coaching then it must surely be just window dressing without substance.

Offline Nearlybaldandgrey

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
PQA's
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2007, 10:11:28 PM »
It isn't about spouting a correct answer parrot fashion ...... and with some feedback from an unsuccessful attempt and a bit of hard work, you can pass them.

PQA's ... personal qualities and attributes are a test of how you have behaved in a given situation in the past, which according to the experts who devise them, will be an indicator of future behaviour.

By spending time understanding them and what is being asked, anyone can pass them. It's about having perception and showing what YOU did, not everyone else, as they are not of interest.

With regard to ADC's, there should be an Initial Test of Potential, which tests the PQA's aswell as time management, organisational skills etc.
If this is passed, then an ADC (Assessment and Development Centre) is the next step. this is a series of further tests in given scenarios using role play and could be one to one or a group. This again tests management skills, how you prioritise information and tasks and manage people.
If success is achieved here, then a development programme is the reward.

I'm old enough to remember the statutory exams and managed to get as far as the subs written before they were phased out. My next step will be the Middle Managers ADC ...... as long as I pass the Initial test.

In this modern Service, development is extremely important and this is achieved through feedback from assessors which will identify areas that need development. It relies on candidates doing some work though and being able to take a knock back.
I was deemed "not suitable" for promotion last year following series of assessments. I got my feedback, listened, looked for opportunities that I could use to develop myself, worked hard and have passed this year with the reward of a job, proof that it does work.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
PQA's
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2007, 05:58:22 PM »
Thanks for the useful explanation Baldyman.
Quote from: baldyman
PQA's ... personal qualities and attributes are a test of how you have behaved in a given situation in the past, which according to the experts who devise them, will be an indicator of future behaviour
Is there any formal development support for people who do not fulfill the PQA requirements?
Following development, support and guidance, is there any evidence that a candidates future perceptions and behaviour will be modified permanently as a result?

Would someone be put in post following the ADC and before any development programme is complete?

In the past there was generally no development other than for standard courses and post promotion interview you were chucked in at the deep end  so I am not knocking the new system- just curious to see how much of an improvement it really is in terms of identifying suitable candidates to do a job and supporting them in carrying out that role.

Offline kev14

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
PQA's
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2008, 02:49:30 PM »
Quote from: hannahvca
Kurnal
for someone who has retired i think you have it more or less! I  know a lot of people who are a lot more fuzzy about the whole thing, which is a shame. baldyman also seems to know his/her(?!) stuff, being an interviewer can help get your head around it, but these interviews can seem 'unscientific' if they are used by people not trained to do so. there is method in the way they are designed, although they do still have limitations, which is why the ADCs hold so much weight.

my understanding is that the PQAs assess potential, and the development programmes develop these skills within the FRS context of technical application, amongst all the other things that are vital to the role. and there are a lot of things other than technical competence which are vital to the running of such a complex organisation, and its this running of the FRS which is what management roles need to be able to do effectively.
A flaw in the system must surely be that if so much importance is put on the ADC in getting better managers over what the old exam system delivered then why have only 1 ADC per maagment level.
The result being for example a CM in position under the old system can go for a WM position with only the PQA based interview, so if the ADC is so imprtant then why not have 1 for each promotion.
As someone who is currently caught in the new promotion process, i have both the JO/1 and JO/2 tickets for what they are now worth and have completed the ADC and am awaiting my development plan i can see some benefits, the ADC was quite a positive experience, but also some negatives, ie promotion with no technical or practical exams.
It seems to me that rather than being a fairer system for development for all, you could say that dependant on your position at the time of introduction you may have to jump through more or less hoops to get to the same grade ie WM, and as i have already said if the ADC is such an integral part of getting better managers then surely everyone should go through it.