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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: JOHNHARPER on June 05, 2009, 10:33:06 AM
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Has anyone come across these http://www.pinqy.com/nieuws.php. ? Someone I know has just purchased 50 to place around his mansion house. Must have been a good salesman :)
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Quite some claim!
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It's not the only novel shape of small fire extinguisher available in the UK - http://www.absfire.it/prodotto.php?id=2013
Also the design is not new - it was first used over 40 years ago by Ansul in their small marine fire extinguisher
Impressive claims, looking at the fact it is claiming ABEF capability means that although it looks like it is filled with AFFF, it must be actually something more akin to Cold Fire.
Having found some video footage it must be a catalytic agent like Cold Fire, if you believe what you see.
My worry is the short discharge time in untrained hands and the fact it isn't made to any standard, plus no mention of PED or CE mark compliance, however in a more appropriately shaped cylinder the agent could be a Halon replacement for police use.
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The design of this extinguisher is innovative and cannot be compared with the Ansule Marine Extinguisher from the year 1959. Fyi PinQY has obtained the `Prix Janus de L`industrie 2007`, the oldest and most prestigious design award in France (since 1953).
Further more PinQY has a discharge time of 7 seconds, a 1KG powder extinguisher has only 6 sec, and this with only 210ml or +/- 1/5. (so imagine what 1L would do). So nothing to worry about discharging time. Please do not forget that due to the attractive design people place nearby and therefore can react immediately.
Also PinQY is completely PED-certified and bears the CE-marking.
It kills A, B, C and F-fires, but with no reignition possible! So once an object in fire (wood, paper, textile, oil, fat fire, ...) has been extinguished you cannot reignite it. So we do not only take one element of the fire triangle away (oxygen) as with powder.
Finally our extinguishing medium is 100% biological and it is not a catalytic agent like Cold fire or Halon.
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example:
1) not killing of a fat fire because you do not take away the `heat`-factor, so you have auto-reignition (powder- co2, etc...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgpxYLYxiDM
2) Killing of a fat fire with PinQY, filled with only 210 ml
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha-6yaRO94k
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Look I think people should come clean on any vested interests here. The last posting shows that if you apply C02 incorrectly the fire will reignite. So What? It impress Dell boy but lets be honest this type of comparison is deceitful and if used for advertising purposes would be misrepresentation.
It sort of implies that this tiny device is better than a monster CO2. It may be but what we need is proper comparisons. What is the media- is it powder? Are there any COSHH issues?
Why do none of the retailers of these Pingy things declare the fire ratings for the product? I have yet to see any A/B/F fire ratings for these things- European, Bristish or American. Till I do, I shall view all such claims with suspicion. Is it just a chance to rip off the public and make a fast buck?
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Look I think people should come clean on any vested interests here. The last posting shows that if you apply C02 incorrectly the fire will reignite. So What? It impress Dell boy but lets be honest this type of comparison is deceitful and if used for advertising purposes would be misrepresentation.
It sort of implies that this tiny device is better than a monster CO2. It may be but what we need is proper comparisons. What is the media- is it powder? Are there any COSHH issues?
Why do none of the retailers of these Pingy things declare the fire ratings for the product? I have yet to see any A/B/F fire ratings for these things- European, Bristish or American. Till I do, I shall view all such claims with suspicion. Is it just a chance to rip off the public and make a fast buck?
Apparantly you have not taken the time to read carefully what has been written down.
Most extinguishers, powder / CO2 / etc..., which are the most common used extinguishers (certainly powder extinguishers), are not capable of killing a fat fire. They only `blow
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Look I think people should come clean on any vested interests here. The last posting shows that if you apply C02 incorrectly the fire will reignite. So What? It impress Dell boy but lets be honest this type of comparison is deceitful and if used for advertising purposes would be misrepresentation.
It sort of implies that this tiny device is better than a monster CO2. It may be but what we need is proper comparisons. What is the media- is it powder? Are there any COSHH issues?
Why do none of the retailers of these Pingy things declare the fire ratings for the product? I have yet to see any A/B/F fire ratings for these things- European, Bristish or American. Till I do, I shall view all such claims with suspicion. Is it just a chance to rip off the public and make a fast buck?
Apparantly you have not taken the time to read carefully what has been written down.
Most extinguishers, powder / CO2 / etc..., which are the most common used extinguishers (certainly powder extinguishers), are not capable of killing a fat fire. They only `blow away the oxygen. When killing a fire you need also the bring the heat down so no reignition is possible. Most extinguishers cannot do this!
So stating that claiming this is deceiptfull and only used for advertising purposes and therefore misrepresentation can be clearly described as... misrepresentation of your side.
Concerning the rating: this has nothing to do with this concept. A bigger volume perhaps can show a higher rating, but as the reality shows even with a `big` extinguisher, so therefore with a higher rating, you cannot even kill a fat fire.
My posting on this website was a reaction to the fact that a member made a remarque concerning the absence of PED and CE-certification, which is not the case.
Perhaps it would be wiser to be informed about a product before making any statements.
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What are the fire ratings for this extinguisher please? Simple question isnt it?
I have nothing against these extinguishers if they do as it says on the tin.
But ad hoc tests- especially when compared against other unsuitable media being incorrectly applied are clearly misleading. Why not compare its performance on cooking fat against a Class F wet chemical extinguisher? Its performance against oils compared with foam spray and conventional dry powder, and on class A fires agaisnt foam spray and water extinguishers? That would be a much more meaningful comparison, but the best way to prove this is to be transparent and tell us the fire ratings.
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What is on the tin, as you call it, is the reality.
A, B, C and F: clearly!
For A and B class: 5A - 21B minimum, with 210ml and discharge time of 7 sec. Please do not forget it is for home use, fi in the kitchen, for direct use. (you do not need to search for it because it is standing besides you). As you know time is a critical factor.
The difference with a Class F wet chemical? Well it only kills an F-fire and it is chemical. We kill A, B, C and F-fires with the same product and it is 100% biological.
The difference with powder? Powder does not kill a fat fire (unless perhaps you use 6KG) and it has no cooldown. It only blowes away the flames. (FI wood: you kill the flames, but the wood stays very hot and can reignite when windy).
etc.....
Finally fyi: we are supported in 9 european countries by insurance companies, this with a reason. Interesting to know is that an english insurance company recently has bought more than 100.000 units who will be given away to their clients in september of this year. So that is the 10th country and just the beginning.
You think it is that easy to get support from an insurance company if you have a bad product? I do not think so.
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Thanks EC. 5A 21B is the information I was looking for.
Its odd that this information does not appear on most of the websites marketing these extinguishers as far as I can tell. But that is not unusual and there are many aerosol based extinguishers on the market that do not have the fire ratings- and this is usually deliberate to avoid showing how poor their equipment actually is.
I understand the pingy to be a dry powder based extinguisher (according to one of the retailers on line) - if so without giving away trade secrets can you tell us which class of powder ( bicarbonate class, phosphate class etc ) it is and does it have any special features such as decrepitation that make it more effective than others? And why if it s powder you say it has a volume of 210mL rather than quoting a weight of agent?
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PinQY WAS a powder extinguisher.
All of our websites needs to be updated, which will happen very soon.
As mentionned before: it is a 100% biological liquid.
It is a unique agent that kills the flames and has an immediate cooldown effect with no-reignition as an effect. To give you a perfect example of what our agent can do: if a house is on fire and the firemen kill the house on fire with water, they need to stay hours and hours afterwards so that their would be no reignition possible.
Kill that same house on fire with our agent and you can go home.
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Hi EC
Does the Pinqy have a rating for class F fires?
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Ratings are normally not used in F class
FYI PinQY is also capable of killing electrical fires or E-class
However E-class is not recognized in UK
Interesting info to understand that the agent we use is quite unique (A, B, C, E and F):
http://fireextinguisherguide.co.uk
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On the market there are many wet chemical extinguishers with a class F rating. A typical 6 litre wet chemical has a F75 rating ie suitable for up to 75 litres of cooking oil. Similarly theres at least one 2 litre class F on sale marketed with a 5A 40F rating.
In many ways I am not hung up on fire ratings for something like your pinqy in as much as if you can market it as a fashion icon and persuade people to have one in every room this would be a good thing and if a fire is discovered and tackled in its incipient stages then only a small extinguisher is needed for a small fire. I wish you good luck with this as if they do take off it will make a contribution to increased fire safety.
But many class B and all class F fires are very different- in so far as all of the fuel is heated to its ignition temperature at the time of ignition. So its not an incipient or small fire that grows slowly - its pretty well all or nothing as far as the fire size is concerned. It is usually considered important to establish the total fuel volume and select a suitably sized extinguisher before tackling the fire.
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EC - Are you able to post a link to the MSDS for the extinguishing media please ?
Paul
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Problem, in a domestic situation, is that an A, B, C, E or F-class fire can occur.
Class A fires are those involving free burning materials, such as paper, wood, fabrics and other textiles, and also plastics
Class B fires involve flammable liquids and solids, such as diesel, petrol, and oils (but not cooking oils), plus solid fuels such as wax
Class C fires involve flammable gases, such as propane, butane and methane
Class D fires involve flammable metals such as sodium, potassium and magnesium
Electrical equipment fires involve electrical equipment such as switchgear or computers. (These are sometimes accidentally referred to as Class E fires, although the category does not officially exist in the UK*)
Class F fires are specific to cooking oils and fats
The problem with a wet chemical extinguisher or F-rated extinguisher from 2L:
Wet chemical fire extinguishers only work with animal fats and vegetable oils, so they cannot be used on Class B fires involving flammable liquids such as petrol or diesel.
They have usually been tested to a 13A Class A rating but should not be specified for anything other than a kitchen.
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So it is real good to have a 2L wet chemical extinguisher, but what can you do with your 2L on other types of fire? Acually.... nothing
And the same applies for other types of extinguishers.
With PinQY you have enough time and agent to easily kill a fat fire in a common domestic situation, and even other `objects` that would catch fire as a result of the fat fire.
And to conclude: each extinguisher has been developed to kill a starting fire. Not to kill a `fire`. So it is a prevention tool, not the `solution`.
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EC - Are you able to post a link to the MSDS for the extinguishing media please ?
Paul
I could, but why should I do that? (not that we have to hide anything)
We work in the first place with insurance companies which are our main (and big) market. I am not here for advertising reason`s (as was suggested before) but to discuss the fact that the presumption `the bigger the better` is not allways correct information.
In a domestic situation, where 95% of the people do not have an extinguisher and are in fact critical consumers, you need to present a product that is acceptable for the consumer but also effective in terms of fire fighting.
We believe we achieved this.
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Would be interested to take a look at it, that's all. Its a shame its not available on the pinqy website, if the product does have a 5a 21b rating it does sound impressive (most 1.5kg BCF's were only 3a 21b, and you only get 8a 55b out of a decent ABC 70 powder) and may appeal to some professional users. What BS/EN is the extinguisher manufactured to ?
Paul
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As far as the website(s), I agree but this will be changed asap
For any further interest (we have a representation in the UK): ec @ pinqy . com
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EC what are the projected prices of these extinguishers I was unable to see any prices on your site.
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There are plenty of 'Wet Chemical' type of extinguishers available that are not just class A, E & F
Class F foams that are rated for A,B & F fires are available from several companies in tried & tested and kitemarked extinguishers:
e.g. Nu Swift 6 ltr Model 8166 - rated 75F : 27A : 233B
Synergy 2 ltr* - rated 8A 70B 25F (uses the 2 ltr ANAF extinguisher body & valve)
So if I wanted a reliable tried and tested extinguisher for ABF use there are several around.
Giving away extinguishers doesn't mean that they are suitable for all situations - plenty of drug companies give own branded Firemaster 600g BC Powder aerosols away to GPs, but that doesn't imply they are the bee's knee's for all purposes.
Plus at least the Ansul Marine extinguisher had instruction and maintenance labeling.
Just because it's not a traditional EN3 size doesn't mean it is no good, but that doesn't stop it getting suitable third party accreditation - the Soda Club 1 kilo CO2 can't get EN3 approval, but it still has CE marking, LLoyds Register & LPCB certification, so I am happy to use it, Amerex polished finish models can't get EN3 approval, but they are CE marked and UL approved, so again I'm happy.
It reminds me of Powex - another innovation that had an initial rave success, but never took off.
Book an afternoon at the UK Fire test ground in Norwich, bring a crate of Pinqy's along and let me have a go at some standard test fires and I'll happily shout your name from the roof tops if they do the job.
Oh by the way - a fire extinguisher is not a preventer* - a fire is a fire is a fire.
(*although thats not quite true as you can use foam on flammable liquid spills to prevent a fire, but in general the fact stands)