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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: David Rooney on September 07, 2009, 09:39:32 AM
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We are providing interfaces to "open" sliding doors in a church. The manufacturer tells me there is a pair of wires that when shorted will cause the doors to open (powered by an internal battery) therefore we can link a fire alarm relay to this pair, and wire a manual release (green breakglass) in parallel.
If we take power completely off the doors they will not slide open, simply be in a position to slide freely.
Is this acceptable in respect of the following clauses...
9.4 The design or configuration of electronically operated locks or striking plates should be such that power is not required in order to unlock any door. If fitted to fire-resisting doors, the lock, latch and locking plate should meet the requirements for BS EN 12209:2003,
Grade 1 in respect of fire resistance; hardware for the door should meet the requirements for BS EN 1527:1998, Grade 1 in respect of fire
resistance.
9.5 Powered sliding doors on means of escape should be installed in accordance with BS 7036-2. The configuration of the release
arrangements should be such that the doors open in the event of failure of the power supplies that operate the doors.
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We are providing interfaces to "open" sliding doors in a church. The manufacturer tells me there is a pair of wires that when shorted will cause the doors to open (powered by an internal battery) therefore we can link a fire alarm relay to this pair, and wire a manual release (green breakglass) in parallel.
If we take power completely off the doors they will not slide open, simply be in a position to slide freely.
Is this acceptable in respect of the following clauses...
9.4 The design or configuration of electronically operated locks or striking plates should be such that power is not required in order to unlock any door. If fitted to fire-resisting doors, the lock, latch and locking plate should meet the requirements for BS EN 12209:2003,
Grade 1 in respect of fire resistance; hardware for the door should meet the requirements for BS EN 1527:1998, Grade 1 in respect of fire
resistance.
9.5 Powered sliding doors on means of escape should be installed in accordance with BS 7036-2. The configuration of the release
arrangements should be such that the doors open in the event of failure of the power supplies that operate the doors.
Not really. You are referring to the means of bypassing and failsafing a door lock. Guidance for PPA and much other guidance and legislation, requires that doors on means of escape should open in the direction of escape especially when large numbers of persons are involved. Sliding doors, of course, do not do this but then neither do they open in, which is a relevant consideration. It is considered preferable that sliding doors are able to crash outwards when pressure is applied from the inside, just as panic locked escape door does or more usually failsafe to open when fire alarm sounds, power failure, fire alarm fault etc etc.
Are there other conventional doors out of the area which may be adequate in size and number for escape without the need to use the main entrance?
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David, it seems that these sliding doors fail the BS7273-4 recommendations in many ways and not least of all by the lack of a fail-safe interconnection to the fire alarm system.
As nearlythere suggests, maybe these doors are not really meant to be part of the emergency evacuation route anyway.
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Aaarrrggghh!!!!
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Aaarrrggghh!!!!
Buzz. Was that you choking on your sausage roll in a bap or have you fallen off the toilet seat again? ::)
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Aaarrrggghh!!!!
Buzz, it'll never go away. I love it!
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Aaarrrggghh!!!!
Stubbed your toe .....??
The doors are being installed leading out from the back of the church so no other alternative route... two other sets of doors are being installed inside outer exit doors forming lobbies.
No AFD is installed, it's a completely manual system.
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Aaarrrggghh!!!!
Stubbed your toe .....??
The doors are being installed leading out from the back of the church so no other alternative route... two other sets of doors are being installed inside outer exit doors forming lobbies.
No AFD is installed, it's a completely manual system.
Surely the "Moses Effect" should over ride any standard and,just like the Red Sea,the doors shall open through devine intervention???
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God only knows
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Who needs Moses? I suppose in a real emergency people could walk straight through it. God willing.
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I may be wrong, sure Wiz will tell me if I am ;), but dont places of worship have a different or alternative set of rules, such as hospitals, cinemas etc etc
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I'm no expert (but who is, except C.T.?) but I believe it applies to all types of premises.
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Wiz, you do yourself a disservice. Your expertise on BS 7273-4 just grows and grows. Wizzyco are very lucky to have you. All you need now is to educate the other 98493483984938 people who have never heard of it, or as stated in a post here consider themselves able to ignore it.
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Wiz, you do yourself a disservice. Your expertise on BS 7273-4 just grows and grows. Wizzyco are very lucky to have you. All you need now is to educate the other 98493483984938 people who have never heard of it, or as stated in a post here consider themselves able to ignore it.
Ok.. I have no idea what BS 7036-2 is all about so wouldn't know if the doors that are being installed comply or not.
a. With regard to my original question is it acceptable to simply "release" the locking mechanism without physically opening the doors?
b. Presumably it is not acceptable to be using this pair of wires that seem to be energised from an internal battery to release the latching mechanism?
c. When it comes to the 7273-4 certificate, am I certificating that the door complies with BS 7036-2 and anything and everything to do with doors I've never heard of or just that my "method of release" complies?
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Dave as it is a manual fire alarm system the interface to the fire alarm (and hence BS7273 part 4) is a much less sigificant benefit (though specified in general terms in BS7036).This needs a common sense approach but a number of other factors will come into play- the number and characteristics of the persons using the building, what they are doing whilst there,how they are likely to behave in an emergency, managment and supervision, staffing levels, fire loading and potential rate of fire growth.
Sliding doors should be avoided on escape routes if possible unless they incorporate a break out function, but in some cases management procedures can compensate so long as they are robust. Please feel free to call anytime for a chat about the issues from a fire risk assessment point of view. (may not be PC though)
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Ok.. I have no idea what BS 7036-2 is all about so wouldn't know if the doors that are being installed comply or not.
a. With regard to my original question is it acceptable to simply "release" the locking mechanism without physically opening the doors?
b. Presumably it is not acceptable to be using this pair of wires that seem to be energised from an internal battery to release the latching mechanism?
c. When it comes to the 7273-4 certificate, am I certificating that the door complies with BS 7036-2 and anything and everything to do with doors I've never heard of or just that my "method of release" complies?
David, you are obviously someone who treats the compliance with standards very seriously. This is a very good thing since they are there for the purpose of trying to make the World a safer place. However, you need to use a bit of lateral thinking otherwise you will just keep taking on the responsibilities of everyone else. This is how I would answer your questions. ( I am assuming that you haven't designed any of the system)
a) If sliding doors are deemed as being acceptable in this application, who are you as the fire alarm engineer, to question this. Why should you have knowledge of what is and what isn't acceptable in this area? Why don't you let someone else worry about this? Surely you have only been asked to ensure the release on this door operates in the required manner?
b) The electrical 'release' of the lock is within the field of your expertise, and the recommendations for it are contained within BS7273-4. Your original explanation of the set-up already highlights at least one element that doesn't comply with BS7273-4. I'm sure you can check the others by reference to 7273-4.
c) Unless 7273-4 included reference to also ensuring compliance with 7036-2 then it is surely not your responsibility. Any certificate you issue should state which BS it covers. It doesn't need to mention those standards it doesn't cover!
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Thanks Kurnal... I might take you up on that chat.....
Wiz, regards (c), the problem I have is that 7273-4 does state specifically -
9.5 Powered sliding doors on means of escape should be installed in accordance with BS 7036-2. The configuration of the release
arrangements should be such that the doors open in the event of failure of the power supplies that operate the doors.
Now as Kurnal and yourself point out, what's this got to do with me, the lowly fire alarm engineer trying to make an honest living guvnor...
But, if I'm putting my neck on the block certificating this system, does this mean the door installer should also provide certification and should I be asking for it to be included in my 7273-4 certificate, otherwise what is the point of the certificating the release of a door that may not meet the standards?
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David, the point you make is valid. You have correctly identified the stumbling block and it could be seen as part of your responsibility, if anyone was being pedantic. Top marks for being aware of it.
I think that you would be quite right to expect for someone to confirm that these sllding doors are installed in accordance with BS7036-2 otherwise you could argue that your 7273-4 certification would be worthless.
However, I remember nothing from your previous posts stating that these sliding doors are powered. I would say that the BS7273-4 clause you highlight specifically relates to powered sliding doors and no others. I now presume that the doors are powered.
I too know nothing about BS7036-2 but one thing we can tell from the BS7273-4 clause is that these doors need to automatically open on failure of their power supply. From this I presume that the doors must have some sort of spring arrangement that is trying to pull them open except where their power source and controls are telling them to close. Are the doors like this?
If they are then the fire alarm interface input/emergency door release surely just needs to interupt the power supply to the doors. I'm still worried about your initial description that the 'emergency' control of the door was expected to be a 'make' contact. I can't see how that ties in with the 'fail-safe' nature of BS7273-4. I would definitely rather interupt the door 'hold-close' power source by a NC contact of an energised interface relay.
If the doors do not automatically open on power failure then I can't see how they can comply with clause 9.5 of BS7273-4 and I suspect they probably don't comply with BS7036-2 for this same reason.
At the end of the day you also need to establish if these doors are meant to comply with BS7273-4 anyway. You might like them to, I might like them to but unless your customer has specifically requested that you certificate them to this standard, is it your responsibility?
As Prof. K and others often argue on these pages, the requirements for equipment and systems in a building are actually based on a risk assessment rather than a prescriptive set of rules and if that assessment doesn't call for sliding doors complying with BS7036-2 and also interfaced to the fire alarm system to BS7273-4, then it is surely not the fire alarm engineer's problem.
When being asked to commission equipment or a system you should ask to which set of standards they are trying to meet. They probably won't know. But why should you know everything and those people earning more than you get away with knowing nothing?
I know nothing, Mr Fawlty.
p.s. Watch out when having the non-PC chat with Prof. K. His views on the new world order are very radical, as I found out when he lectured me on the 'Role of the Fire Risk Assessor in the Post-Apocalyptic Europe. There was much talk of uniforms, jack-boots and matrons with food whisks!
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7273-4 is guidance - people seem to forget that. Put your risk assessment hat on. Will inhabitants/visitors be trained to know that the door will need to be opened manually? Will a fire wardens role include standing by said door and opening it? Is there any dissabled people that can't open the door?
Common Sense, (some of) you have read and grasped the concept of BS7273-4 so look at the risk. The door is powered down but it requires someone to open it. Who is going to open it? Do they know they need too? Are they trained to do this? Has this been practised?
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7273-4 is guidance - people seem to forget that. Put your risk assessment hat on. Will inhabitants/visitors be trained to know that the door will need to be opened manually? Will a fire wardens role include standing by said door and opening it? Is there any dissabled people that can't open the door?
Common Sense, (some of) you have read and grasped the concept of BS7273-4 so look at the risk. The door is powered down but it requires someone to open it. Who is going to open it? Do they know they need too? Are they trained to do this? Has this been practised?
With all due respect.... I'm not a risk assessor, I've been told by my NSI inspector to write on my paperwork that "I'm not a risk assessor and have not carried out a fire risk assessment" as the responsibility lies with the "owner"...ish.
So as a lowly fire alarm engineer I'm trying to fulfill my obligations, as I see them, to make the owner aware of the issues and surely it's up to them and their team of assessors and health and safety advisors (they have a lot of people loving to stick their oars in) to take all the points you so rightly raise into account and tell me what it is that they want ??
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It depends if they are asking for your advice, i think you could quite honestly say that you are not a risk assessor and its the RPs duty to decide which category. BS7273-4 was also written with contractors, specifiers in mind but it does give you Appendix A which details likely category of device you are going to need, stick to that you can't go far wrong.
If someone has the money then Cat A all round however the standard does mention cost as a factor when deciding. Obviously with the most fail safe options comes the most cost and vice versa.
If you look at it everyone can work out what is a high, medium and low risk premises (or door) just relate that to the category.
Cat A - High Risk
Cat B - Med Risk
Cat C - Low Risk
Hopefully CT will agree with me!