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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: jasper on March 05, 2010, 05:28:11 PM
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I am looking into a premises type where I can find little information on the subject. The premises in question is basically a two storey terraced premises with ground floor and three bedrooms upstairs, there are two residents who have learning difficulties and two members of staff during the day and one sleeping in at night (employed by the council). The assessment is on behalf of the landlord and I am seeking guidance regarding fire safety measures required. The lacors document does not apply, as on page 6 that the guidance is not applicable to ''areas in workplaces where staff sleeping in is a condition of employment or a business requirement''. HTM 88 is not relevant as this is not an nhs type premises. So in theory as persons are employed then my thinking is that the 'sleeping guide' is relevant, however to me it seems a bit vague and not detailed in certain parts in comparison to htm88.
Does anyone have any source of info on this type of premises as I always aim to be armed with the detailed knowledge prior to assessing a different type of premises?
Also a point to note is that there are tens to hundreds of thousands of this type of property in the UK and there is no home office etc guidance on this type of property, which to me seems odd.
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Would the DCLG guide " Residential Care Premises " ( http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/fire/firesafetyrisk5 ) be a possible answer?
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What's wrong with using HTM88 Jasper? Would these standards not be just as adequate and appropriate for staff especially when specific guidance is not available?
Does it really matter that this is not an NHS type premises?
If the fire safety measures provided or are recommended are adequate for resident children with learning difficulties then they would certainly be adequate for resident staff.
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There used to be guidance issued by the home office which is now donkeys years old. It was in a series of guides which dealt with adult placement, forster care and small childrens homes. I would personally recommend looking at a part 6 system probably LD3, HD in the kitchen and leave it at that.
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Thanks for the replies guys, the problem is that say I went for a part 6 system as clevelandfire stated the an inspecting officer uses the sleeping or residential care premises guide then the fra would be classed as not being suitable or sufficient. I dont want to go overboard but also don't want to be short.
The building currently has no fire doors to the bedrooms and is open plan downstairs with an open staircase, it has a part 6 system and that is it, escape windowns cannot be used as a trade off as the residents would not be able to use then due to having serious learning difficulties. I have spoke to one fire officer who has advised a domestic sprinkler system, but to me forming a protected route on the gf would be better.
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Does the staircase terminate into the lounge? If not then traditional doors + part 6 is fine, domestic sprinklers would be well over the top.Are the staff awake at night or are they waking staff?
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Fire Officers are recommending a sprinkler system isn all situations now, its good advice in terms of fire safety but just is not practicable for existing buildings in existing use. Thats why HTM88 has two sections- one for existing and one for new build.
HTM88 is exactly the right guidance document to use, it does not have any legal standing as such but it is intended to be aplied to Non NHS owned premises that are occupied by persons receiving supported living from a trust.It is also referred to as a suitable approach in the ADB.
The benchmark recommended for detection and alarm is a grade C LD1 system but the document does recommend a risk assessment approach to all fire safety factors. No fire authority should have any reason not to accept its use in the circumstances described.
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Does the staircase terminate into the lounge? If not then traditional doors + part 6 is fine, domestic sprinklers would be well over the top.Are the staff awake at night or are they waking staff?
the staircase is open to the lounge, staff are sleeping, standard doors only
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Ouch. Rather limits your options then Jasper. I would still apply HTM88 though.
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Kurnal's right again.
HTM88 was written specifically to address this type of premises. The only reason the guidance document didn't reference social care as well as NHS care is because the Department of Health did not carry the fire safety policy lead for social care at the time it was written.
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Shame the staircase comes down into the lounge. I wouldnt go with HTM 88 personally. You can liken this to a domestic scenario. LD1 is totally overkill, LD3 is more like it. If you have room you may consider trying to protect the staircase somehow, but dont do that at the expense of living space for the children.
Ill try and find copies of the guides i mentioned. They were produced by CFOA now i come to think of it and are a better fit than HTM 88 in my opinion.
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Shame the staircase comes down into the lounge. I wouldnt go with HTM 88 personally. You can liken this to a domestic scenario. LD1 is totally overkill, LD3 is more like it. If you have room you may consider trying to protect the staircase somehow, but dont do that at the expense of living space for the children.
Ill try and find copies of the guides i mentioned. They were produced by CFOA now i come to think of it and are a better fit than HTM 88 in my opinion.
there are no children just two residents around 30 yo with learning difficulties
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Shame the staircase comes down into the lounge. I wouldnt go with HTM 88 personally. You can liken this to a domestic scenario. LD1 is totally overkill, LD3 is more like it. If you have room you may consider trying to protect the staircase somehow, but dont do that at the expense of living space for the children.
Ill try and find copies of the guides i mentioned. They were produced by CFOA now i come to think of it and are a better fit than HTM 88 in my opinion.
Disagree Cleveland. HTM 88 is probably the only guide that fits this scenario properly. The guides I think you are refering to were CACFOA circulars, and didn't cover adult placement.
Jaspar I would look at a few things. I do agree with CF3 that this should be treated very much like a normal domestic scenario. The whole point of schemes like this is to de-institutionalise adult care, so making clinical alterations to the staircase would not fit in with the spirit of what they are trying to achieve.
Would it be beyond the realms of possibility to have a member of staff awake at night? (Wage bill for a night worker may be higher than a waking staff member - but don't its worth asking if the organisation will do this)
Its important to have a balanced approach. I feel LD1 Grade C alarm system would be unecessary, but considering the staircase issue then perhaps an LD2 would be advisable.
That coupled with good management (these places generally are well managed), PAT testing carried out, electrics up to standard, limited combustibles in the lounge then I would say that the staircase can be left as it is.
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Shame the staircase comes down into the lounge. I wouldnt go with HTM 88 personally. You can liken this to a domestic scenario. LD1 is totally overkill, LD3 is more like it. If you have room you may consider trying to protect the staircase somehow, but dont do that at the expense of living space for the children.
Ill try and find copies of the guides i mentioned. They were produced by CFOA now i come to think of it and are a better fit than HTM 88 in my opinion.
Disagree Cleveland. HTM 88 is probably the only guide that fits this scenario properly. The guides I think you are refering to were CACFOA circulars, and didn't cover adult placement.
Jaspar I would look at a few things. I do agree with CF3 that this should be treated very much like a normal domestic scenario. The whole point of schemes like this is to de-institutionalise adult care, so making clinical alterations to the staircase would not fit in with the spirit of what they are trying to achieve.
Would it be beyond the realms of possibility to have a member of staff awake at night? (Wage bill for a night worker may be higher than a waking staff member - but don't its worth asking if the organisation will do this)
Its important to have a balanced approach. I feel LD1 Grade C alarm system would be unecessary, but considering the staircase issue then perhaps an LD2 would be advisable.
That coupled with good management (these places generally are well managed), PAT testing carried out, electrics up to standard, limited combustibles in the lounge then I would say that the staircase can be left as it is.
The thing with an open plan stairway is that you effectively have a sleeping inner room condition x 3 most probably with an excessive travel distance of that condition.
I entirely agree with the point about creating a non institutionalised living environment for persons being cared for in the community but it is still an institution.
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Totally agree NT, but is this any riskier than your average domestic scenario?
In my experience residents are generally well supervised in these types of places. The staircase situation is unfortunate, but often trying to fiddle around with staircases can be costly and can mean you loose part or most of the lounge area.
So its trying to balance "quality of life" against "life safety" I guess.
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Totally agree NT, but is this any riskier than your average domestic scenario?
In my experience residents are generally well supervised in these types of places. The staircase situation is unfortunate, but often trying to fiddle around with staircases can be costly and can mean you loose part or most of the lounge area.
So its trying to balance "quality of life" against "life safety" I guess.
I agree with your balancing quality of life-v-quality of safety issue and certainly the risk would be no greater than a domestic environment. I would actually consider the risk much less as this type of care environment is certainly much more controlled. I do not have a risk concern as that can be quite easily and reasonably controlled but a concern that the F&RS may not be persuaded that the risk is adequately controllable by such measures.
I have carried out a number of FRAs for this type of service provider but haven't yet come across an open plan issue. But be assured that in my neck of the woods the normal 12 months experienced IO will not be at all happy or satisfied if I assessed it as OK.
Hairy bummed and experienced IOs are fast disappearing
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It might well be riskier than the average domestic situation. It entirely depends on how much supervision and support the service users may require on being wakened at 3am because of a fire, whether the staff member is upstairs or downstairs and whether they can be safely dealt with as a pair or whether the staff member would have to rouse them and lead them out one at a time.
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I take on board your points Kurnal however the type of environment in adult care of this particular nature is such that the "client" forms long term relationships with his or her carer. The carers become almost like surrogate parents in a sense.
As such the clients tend to respond well to their carers, and likewise the carers grow to understand their clients behavioral traits just as a parent does with their child. So this is very much like a domestic scenario and I dont see any significant additonal risks to warrant perhaps the OTT response nearlythere is talking about.
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I agree with most of what you say midland and that is exactly what adult placements are all about, but this appears to be supported living in a small care home "Core Homes " we used to call them. The Care staff are working shifts and 1:1 during the day and in this case 1:2 at night. I also agree that at best Core homes can pretty identical to a single family dwelling but in other cases are far from it.
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Absolutely and each has to be judged on its own merits.
For anyone else interested in this subject its worth noting that sometimes the clients actually live with the carers family - in other words the arrangement is almost like foster care.
Its complex, but I do share NT and others worry that some inspectors (not all) and for that matter some assessors too may be overburdensome in their requirements for these type of places.
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May I play devils advocate for a moment. How many of you would consider sleeping in a premise like this. Open staircase leading down to an open plan living room and conventional doors on the bedrooms with no window exit. The only protection a Part 6 fire alarm? I do not think I would.
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May I play devils advocate for a moment. How many of you would consider sleeping in a premise like this. Open staircase leading down to an open plan living room and conventional doors on the bedrooms with no window exit. The only protection a Part 6 fire alarm? I do not think I would.
Many do TW. There are many open plan houses and people are not dying from fires in them.
I remember being in a new house in a major development in Scotland where the houses were so small they left the stairway open into the lounge to give the illusion of space.
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May I play devils advocate for a moment. How many of you would consider sleeping in a premise like this. Open staircase leading down to an open plan living room and conventional doors on the bedrooms with no window exit. The only protection a Part 6 fire alarm? I do not think I would.
Hi Tom
There are a high proportion of domestic dwellings across the UK designed in this way. Infact you can come across the odd HMO with this layout regularly. My previous address had the stairs came down in the lounge and whilst Im not pretending it is ideal by any means I didnt loose any sleep about it.
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thanks for the replies fellas
supposedly lancs fr are having a seminar in the coming weeks on this exact topic as there is a lot of confusion, even for enforcing authorities
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Ther is a guide available from the CCLG web site not sure of a web link
It free and is aimed at community care housing I am of the opinion that the staff will come under the RRO if you have any problems locating it email me and I can send a copy.
The title is
Fire Safety in Adult Placements:
A Code of Practice
Google should find a copy
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Ther is a guide available from the CCLG web site not sure of a web link
It free and is aimed at community care housing I am of the opinion that the staff will come under the RRO if you have any problems locating it email me and I can send a copy.
The title is
Fire Safety in Adult Placements:
A Code of Practice
Google should find a copy
Hi, managed to find it and quite a good document (thanks for that). However, it was published prior to the advent of the RRO
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NT and MM I do not disagree with you and I lived in a two up and two down were the staircase discharged into the living room. However the bedroom doors were fairly substantial and there was a window escape if things went pear shaped. This premises does not have the benefit of a window escape.
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NT and MM I do not disagree with you and I lived in a two up and two down were the staircase discharged into the living room. However the bedroom doors were fairly substantial and there was a window escape if things went pear shaped. This premises does not have the benefit of a window escape.
Even if there was a window escape in your premises would it be appropriate, for the type of persons you are dealing with, TW as an alternative MOE.
I'm not saying that an open stairway is not suitable. I'm just drawing your attention to the issues associated with than design and its impact on your situation.
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I think as stated earlier that each assessment has to be risk specific to the disability profile of the occupants, in this case I would not say it would be suitable or sufficient for the escape plan to involve two pretty serious mental health impaired occupants jumping out of or being rescued from a first floor window
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NT I was responding to yours and Midlands reply 21 & 22 I accept there are many properties like this and for many people beefing up the fire resistance and providing a window escape could make it acceptable but not in this case as jasper has explained window escape is a non starter.
In this case the whole strategy relies on a fire alarm giving early warning and the carer getting his/her charges out before the MOE becomes impassable. How long would this be, based on previous videos I have seen I would suggest less than 5 minutes would this be sufficient time considering there is no plan B?
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To be honest in this situation I probably would go for window rescue as a plan B. Its what we advise members of the public in their own homes why should this be any different. TW no one is saying you are incorrect but you have to balance the risk against the consequences. The risk may be low but the consequences very high. To combat that wack in an interlinked fire alarm system and you are already exceeding what most people have in their domestic single dwelling cosy homes. Still dont think HTM 88 is the right guide for this.
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To be honest in this situation I probably would go for window rescue as a plan B. Its what we advise members of the public in their own homes why should this be any different. TW no one is saying you are incorrect but you have to balance the risk against the consequences. The risk may be low but the consequences very high. To combat that wack in an interlinked fire alarm system and you are already exceeding what most people have in their domestic single dwelling cosy homes. Still dont think HTM 88 is the right guide for this.
HTM88 not the right guide but whacking in an interlinked fire alarm system is?
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Some years ago I worked with a number of people suffering from various levels of learning disabilitiesand mental health illness,living in the community.There was no 'live in staff',and they lived in two storey accommodation(houses/flats) which all had been provided with enclosed FR staircases and an L2 system.I have also lived a few doors away for the last 20 years to a small house that has sleep in staff-the lads(adults) living their are dependent on 24 hour staffing,and do little for them selves,some are unable to communicate clearly or are withdrawn.Their house also has a protected stairway and an L2 system.I would be reluctant to accept an open staircase in these types of premises,simply because of the unpredictable nature, variation of levels of learning disability, and other circumstances such as refusal to take medication etc where they may well refuse to,or delay evacuation,putting staff at risk as well as themselves.
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I disagree NT & Cleveland, HTM 88 was specifically written to address the needs of supported living.
It was written by my team at NHS Estates at the time that "Care in the Community" was in full swing and there was a drive to accommodate "clients" ( those with mental health issues, dementia or learning difficulties) in a domestic environment as opposed to the institutional environment of mental health hospitals.
At the time it was written there was great debate over the duty of care owed to the clients since the majority of these premises were not owned by the NHS, but were secured under tenancy agreement between the client and landlord, albeit in most cases the NHS would arrange the tenancy and in some provide the staff. Things got even more murky when units were provided with care staff from social services since the Department of Health did not retain the fire safety policy lead for social services which were run by local authority and therfore were not obliged to follow the guidance of HTM 88.
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Not sure about england and wales but here in scotland it would not be a relevant premises. There would have to be an element of care provided or 3 or more persons for which it is their primary or only residence.
There is a loophole in the law which is often exploited by local authorities.
I had a case where 2 people were provided with a shared house with 24 hour staffing, but despite one of those being bed ridden and completely incapable of doing anything at all for themselves the care commission still thought it appropriate to class it as assisted living. Odd reasoning as this person would just wither and die on their own. He needed more help than just a bit of vacuuming and washing done.
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To be honest in this situation I probably would go for window rescue as a plan B. Its what we advise members of the public in their own homes why should this be any different.
I think you would struggle justifying this in court. I certinally know the legal view on this from a certain barrister and his opinion would be if it is not in the guide it does not exist.
Personally I am a supporter of window escape where it is not reasonbly practicable to support any other means and the occupancy will support this strategy.
Im not sure this one meets this criteria, difficult to tell from a distance of course. ::)