FireNet Community
THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: SidM on May 20, 2010, 02:42:26 PM
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For obvious reasons the casino refuse to install a green box on their exits. There is a link to the fire alarm and doors open on power failure. What can they do if they don't want to fit green boxes at the exits?
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For obvious reasons the casino refuse to install a green box on their exits. There is a link to the fire alarm and doors open on power failure. What can they do if they don't want to fit green boxes at the exits?
Obvious reasons do not have to be valid SidM. If there is a valid security issue then alternatives may be considered. This could be the provision of failsafe measures and good management. I take it they have ample CCTV security which, along with a sound management plan, could be utilised to provide a monitoring and central door release system.
What about a double knock with a delay on operation of a green box to allow security people to get to door with a failsafe in event of detection of fire?
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Nearlythere - I am not sure I know what you mean. Are you suggesting that the green box can be set up to operate one off three ways.
1. If the fire alarm goes off, the door does not release and the green box is operated the doors will open
2. If two smoke detectors go off and the fire alarm does not release the door the green box will
3. If there is no fire alarm or double knock and someone operates the green box security will be notified and there will be a time delay before the doors release.
If this is what you mean, can green boxes be set up to achieve number 3 above
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Nearlythere - I am not sure I know what you mean. Are you suggesting that the green box can be set up to operate one off three ways.
1. If the fire alarm goes off, the door does not release and the green box is operated the doors will open.
2. If two smoke detectors go off and the fire alarm does not release the door the green box will
3. If there is no fire alarm or double knock and someone operates the green box security will be notified by and there will be a time delay before the doors release.
If this is what you mean, can green boxes be set up to achieve number 3 above
I am assuming we are only talking about the operation of the green box. If the alarm goes off the doors should release immediately. I assume the reason for the absence of a green box is in case of robbery and quick escape.
What I am saying is that on operation of the green box there is a delay before door releases of sufficient time to enable a security check of the relevant door. This system would be failsafe in that the lock would release immediately on operation of the fire alarm system by manual or automatic means.
With the technical wizzardry at our disposal nowadays the green box system could be set this way. It is only a switch after all.
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Could I ask......Leaving aside what British Standards say, under what circumstances would the green box be required?
Stu
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Could I ask......Leaving aside what British Standards say, under what circumstances would the green box be required?
Stu
Generally a green box would normally be provided on a door where control over entry and exit is required. The door would be locked but interlinked with the manual and automatic fire alarm system to release on operation.
A manual override facility would also be provided at the door - green box.
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Thanks NY, but what I really wanted was for someone to describe the precise circumstances under which someone would be required to press the green box.
Stu
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Been involved with Casinos for years , this is not an unusual circumstance .
Its all to do with the money stuff , and was present when the Inspecting Officer was on site to grant the licence etc, the young lady who was with him , commented on this aka no green release .
The Casino proved all the risk measures which is standard across the clubs , and you will probably find the exit(s) you may well be talking about are into staff areas / back off house .
He was happy to accept the other numerous escape routes off the gaming floor still in Public areas .
He did ask us to prove the doors without the green bgu de locked upon fire condition.
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Thanks NY, but what I really wanted was for someone to describe the precise circumstances under which someone would be required to press the green box.
Stu
Stu, I'm coming into this late and might be completely missing your point, because what you seem to be asking seems to be obvious to me! Well here goes.
Whilst escaping from a premises on fire, I find that my escape route is locked by a door held closed by a mag-lock. The fire alarm has operated but due to a fault on the system the mag-lock has not automatically released. Fortunately a green BGU, more correctly called an Emergeny Door Release, is positioned beside the locked door. When I operate this the electrical power to the maglock is removed and the door unlocks allowing my escape from the premises.
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Do we have call points at all the exits?
If so, and they are connected to the magnetic lock, then surely they compromise security just as much as the green boxes?
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Do we have call points at all the exits?
If so, and they are connected to the magnetic lock, then surely they compromise security just as much as the green boxes?
Yes. But maybe bandits might not realise that the locks are linked to the fire alarm system. If that proves to be an issue then it could be that a delay is desirable to the door release mechanism when fire alarm sounds.
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The whole point of the green box is that it is right on the power supply to the magnet, on both poles. Pressing the break glass physically cuts the power to the magnet on both poles, so even a short cannot stop it working.
Anything that creates this delay is relying on a signal, whether it is from the alarm system or from the box itself, this signal has to go somewhere for some micro-electrical system to make a decision or start a timer, and then eventually send a signal back. Then something has to stop the flow of electricity to the magnet. All it takes is one short/error and the whole system falls down. Locked exits, just when they are needed.
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The whole point of the green box is that it is right on the power supply to the magnet, on both poles. Pressing the break glass physically cuts the power to the magnet on both poles, so even a short cannot stop it working.
Anything that creates this delay is relying on a signal, whether it is from the alarm system or from the box itself, this signal has to go somewhere for some micro-electrical system to make a decision or start a timer, and then eventually send a signal back. Then something has to stop the flow of electricity to the magnet. All it takes is one short/error and the whole system falls down. Locked exits, just when they are needed.
I take it Civvy you are not in favour of a delay?
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Correct. I am not in favour of having any emergency exit locked just to protect money, especially in a place of assembly where we have many members of the public.
They can do many things to secure their money, but if someone has made it though all their defences and got the cash, is the robbery really going to be foiled if they can't walk out of a fire exit immediately?
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Civvy I know where you are coming from, I agree but I dont see it as simple as that. The delayed exit strategy is not necessarily just to protect money.
Robberies in places like casinos are not spur of the moment events- the robbers will have cased out the job before they do it. If they see a green break glass box then it will make that casino even more vulnerable to a potential attack.
Robberies are probably an even greater risk to peoples safety than a fire in this situation.
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I also do not think that the presence, or lack of, green boxes will sway anyones decision to rob the place or not. The hard work is getting into the place, and then getting to the money. Once that is acheived does anyone here truly think that any robber would be averse to simply walking out the way they came in? Or not savvy enough to realise that the fire alarm will open the exits?
And assuming that a robbery occurs, I don't think that keeping potential robbers inside the Casino for longer would be the best option for public safety.
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I also do not think that the presence, or lack of, green boxes will sway anyones decision to rob the place or not. The hard work is getting into the place, and then getting to the money. Once that is acheived does anyone here truly think that any robber would be averse to simply walking out the way they came in? Or not savvy enough to realise that the fire alarm will open the exits?
And assuming that a robbery occurs, I don't think that keeping potential robbers inside the Casino for longer would be the best option for public safety.
Maybe its more a case of preventing someone inside opening doors for others to get in?
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Again, I can't see any robbery being foiled by someone not being able to walk in through a fire exit. Besides, CCTV coverage in casinos is generally extensive and would quite clearly show who opened the door.
People seem to be grasping at straws to justify it. To me it seems quite simple. Secure the money properly. Money doesn't have to escape if there is a fire. If someone manages to get through all the security to get to the money, what difference is a fire exit being locked or unlocked going to make to them? (As opposed to persons wanting to escape from fire, what difference does a locked exit make to them?)
Basically, I feel that there are other ways to deal with this type of security without hindering escape.
There are circumstances where I would not have overrides on fire exits, but to protect money is not one of them.
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Money doesn't openly change hands in Casinos. People play with plastic chips which are then exchanged for cash from a member of staff working inside a secure kiosk.
So its not a case of a robber just coming in and freely swiping cash and legging it as if they were swiping goods from a supermarket .
You might have a thief posing as patron, waiting to rob an innocent victim collecting their winnings from the kiosk. But I doubt anyone would be that stupid and hope to get away with it. They are more likely to follow the victim out of the premsies, away from witnesses and cameras before robbing them.
Secondly to rob the premises the assailants aren't going opportunistic, and neither will they just walk in and threaten the security staff with a "queensbury rules" punch up. They will be organised and carrying offensive weapons for very obvious reasons. This means they get what they want, by threat of violence if necessary.
So if that meant they wanted the safe to be unlocked safe by a member of staff I can say with much certainity it will be done, likewise if they wanted a door unlocking that would be done too. So BGU serves as no hinderance to security at all. If there was no BGU to aid their passage the thieves could still have the door opened if they wanted to.
So I agree with Civvy.
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I can assure you that I have seen 5k in cash (per spin ) thrown on a roulette wheel before and this went on for over 2 hours , don't assume that everything is a plastic transaction , high rollers is the name of the game.
As I am old school I like things belt and braces , but if the punter (excuse the term) the client wants to go his own road and can demonstrate to the authorities and they accept it , you cant do aloft about it.
I don't make a point of staying in a hotel without a fire system , but when have been on the lash and want to get me head down , it don't bother me the same.
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but when have been on the lash and want to get me head down , it don't bother me the same.
Eloquently put sir.
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I can assure you that I have seen 5k in cash (per spin ) thrown on a roulette wheel before and this went on for over 2 hours , don't assume that everything is a plastic transaction , high rollers is the name of the game.
As I am old school I like things belt and braces , but if the punter (excuse the term) the client wants to go his own road and can demonstrate to the authorities and they accept it , you cant do aloft about it.
I don't make a point of staying in a hotel without a fire system , but when have been on the lash and want to get me head down , it don't bother me the same.
Sorry I find it difficult to believe that that is the norm. I dont think the licensing authorities would like that and if you have money openly being banded about it is asking for trouble . So to me the emergency break glass devices or whatever Wiz decides they should be called this week are the least of the casino's worries
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Did we get to the bottom of these doors , are they are in Public areas or leading into back of house ?
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.... So to me the emergency break glass devices or whatever Wiz decides they should be called this week ......
Clevelandfire, I'm glad you believe I have the power and authority to make these desicions. It is about time the whole World followed my advice.
I have no problem with those lacking the knowledge using the term Green Box (although it sounds like something used for recycling!) but those who hope to be considered as professional should surely use the correct terminology.
I thought I would make the point, as irrelevant as it may have been to the original question, and will continue to do such for the wider good of the whole World!
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.... So to me the emergency break glass devices or whatever Wiz decides they should be called this week ......
Clevelandfire, I'm glad you believe I have the power and authority to make these desicions. It is about time the whole World followed my advice.
I have no problem with those lacking the knowledge using the term Green Box (although it sounds like something used for recycling!) but those who hope to be considered as professional should surely use the correct terminology.
I thought I would make the point, as irrelevant as it may have been to the original question, and will continue to do such for the wider good of the whole World!
So what have you called it this week Wiz? ;D
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.... So to me the emergency break glass devices or whatever Wiz decides they should be called this week ......
Clevelandfire, I'm glad you believe I have the power and authority to make these desicions. It is about time the whole World followed my advice.
I have no problem with those lacking the knowledge using the term Green Box (although it sounds like something used for recycling!) but those who hope to be considered as professional should surely use the correct terminology.
I thought I would make the point, as irrelevant as it may have been to the original question, and will continue to do such for the wider good of the whole World!
So what have you called it this week Wiz? ;D
I have always called it an Emergency Door Release despite what Mr Cleveland dreams in his unfathomable grey matter.
However, now that my new authority has been recognised by Nearlythere, I decree that, this week, it shall be called an Escapewidget.
Will all relevant parties please now amend their documentation to recognise this change.
Wow! I feel as powerful as Mr. C.T.!
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You can't call it an escape widget. A widget is something to do with beer and head, - I mean the froth type.
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Another reason why these are necessary is that people might need to escape in a hurry without the fire alarm going off, and they reduce the risk of crushing incidents in those circumstances. It's not always a fire that results in the need for swift evacuation.
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Civvy I know where you are coming from, I agree but I dont see it as simple as that. The delayed exit strategy is not necessarily just to protect money.
Robberies in places like casinos are not spur of the moment events- the robbers will have cased out the job before they do it. If they see a green break glass box then it will make that casino even more vulnerable to a potential attack.
Robberies are probably an even greater risk to peoples safety than a fire in this situation.
Kurnal, just reading some back records on emergency break glass units. I wondered if I could change the discussion slightly in relation to a Care Home which the RP doesn't prefer to have ebu's (green boxes!) on two certain doors that open directly into the street/community. The residents are dementia suffers but as we know can easily sus out how the over ride mechanisms work! The potential for harm by a resident wandering off outside would be greater than the potential for fire in the sense that within the building are up to date fire precautions, trained staff etc. Personally I used to prefer a simple loose fitting draw bolt at a high level but some staff may not reach this and some residents would! next option would be a keycode lock with a common number that all staff know, but Mr jackboot smiling assasin from the local authority has requested the ebu's in a notice of deficiencies, happy to challenge this but also wondered if a bgu on a delay would work in this situation.