FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Community Fire Safety => Topic started by: kurnal on November 26, 2010, 07:29:22 AM
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The following news item copied with permission from the FIA website
25 Nov 2010
All domestic new build properties in Wales will be fitted with sprinklers following the success of the Legislative Competence Order passed by the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG).
The Domestic Fire Safety (Wales) Measure won unanimous support from assembly members, making Wales the first country in the world to have legislation making it mandatory to install sprinklers in all new build homes.
Industry experts have welcomed the move, with Fire Industry Association chief executive officer Graham Ellicott saying "any new measures from government that will drive down fire deaths and property losses" is welcome.
Peter Holland of the Chief Fire Officers' Association added: "Sprinklers save lives and it is vital that this message is received and acted upon both within and outside of the fire industry."
England lags behind both Wales and Scotland as far as legislation regarding sprinklers is concerned and the latter said more needs to be done to increase the use of the fire suppression systems throughout the UK.
It will be very interesting to see how the new Legislation is implemented and whether any of the other provisions of the Building Regulations will be varied in Lieu. Will the Building Act be changed or will it be implemented and enforced via supplementary legislation?
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Kurnal,
Even though the measure is passed, there is much more work required. Decisions still have to be made about insurance v cost of installation, water supplies (Welsh water and FAs yet to agree supplies), the requirement for maintenance etc.
The definition of Dwellinghouse still has to be ironed out and even though there are moves to Devolve Building Regs to Wales in the next 12 months or so, I do know that there are no planned changes for ADB DK ADM or ADN, only AD L because the devolution is based on Energy Efficiency.
Work on sprinklers is due to complete by March.
That's all I know so far.
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There is also the level of cover. Throughout or specific areas?
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Kurnal, I do hope this is not more mis-information. My understanding is that no law requiring sprinklers has yet been passed. I thought it was at stage 2 in the process of making powers available to the ministers. Perhaps you could clarify what law has now been passed.
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Colin,
I believe Kurnal's post is not in danger of being misconstrued, but merely informative. All interested parties, will be aware by now that The Chief Fire Officers’ Association (CFOA) today welcomed the decision by the Welsh Assembly Government to unanimously support the Legislative Competence Order. The LCO being passed now means that the Welsh Assembly Government has permission to pass legislation known as an Assembly Measure, which operates in Wales just as an Act of Parliament operates across the UK.
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Dear Colin you are becoming so predictable.
My posting is absolutely clear that it is a direct quote taken (with permission) from the FIA website. You are a member of the Board of the FIA.
It puzzles me why, if you are concerned at the accuracy of this story, you do not go to the quoted source over which you do have some control and responsibility? Or should I take your response as just grasping at any chance to have a snipe at myself and the firenet forum for spreading "misinformation"? ;)
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Dear Colin you are becoming so predictable.
My posting is absolutely clear that it is a direct quote taken (with permission) from the FIA website. You are a member of the Board of the FIA.
It puzzles me why, if you are concerned at the accuracy of this story, you do not go to the quoted source over which you do have some control and responsibility? Or should I take your response as just grasping at any chance to have a snipe at myself and the firenet forum for spreading "misinformation"? ;)
Quite
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And just for the record:
http://www.fia.uk.com/en/Information/Details/index.cfm/obj_id/7FE084D8-EDAE-4EC1-A4DA2810C1D42675
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ALIENS HAVE BEEN DEACTIVATING NUCLEAR MISSILES. IT IS A FACT OF WHICH YOU SHOULD ALL BE AWARE. IT MUST BE TRUE COS IT WAS IN A NEWSPAPER.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/ufo/8026971/Aliens-have-deactivated-British-and-US-nuclear-missiles-say-US-military-pilots.html HERE IS THE LINK:
I shall raise the item with the FIA on Monday on your behalf, Dr K.
If you feel that aliens have not really landed, complain to the Board of the daily telegraph, as I was just passing on the information in good faith because I believed it and I wanted you all to be aware of this as soon as possible.
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I wont get drawn into explaining why a Trade Association is different from a national newspaper. This forum is a discussion group dedicated to the topic of fire and any topics on a fire theme are welcome.
Sometimes topics will arise from misinformation, misconception ir misreporting. If this is the case I am sure we can rely on you Colin and our other regular posters to educate and inform us of the true position. We will all then be better informed.
Sometimes I think we forget that actually, despite all the sniping and backbiting. that we are all dedicated and committed to the same goals of reducing death, injury and loss from fire. I am sure that thats why many sit up to the wee small hours. Some of us do our often inadequate best to answer persons genuine enquiries and try to help people. Other posters help by pointing out the inadequacies, misinformation or misperception of others' answers whilst rarely directly contributing to the content of the debate.
In my view all contributions to the discussion are welcome so long as we dont get personal.
Back to sprinklers any legislation on this topic is indeed a big story and thanks to GFSM for putting the situation into context. There is a slightly different take on the story on info4fire
http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/wales-comes-closer-to-compulsory-residential-sprinklers-video
The legislation under discussion can be found here
http://www.assemblywales.org/ms-ld8131-e.pdf .
The proposal is aimed at new dwellings, care homes or schools providing sleeping accommodation and provides for all parts of the premises including those areas ancillar to the sleeping accommodation to be provided with a fire suppression system (not specifiically sprinklers)
Heres a big new opening for low pressure water mist systems, one such system is now being marketed in the UK, reported to having been tested to new German standards. If anyone is interested I will post more info on this and the compliance standards claimed.
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Gents,
This document http://www.assemblywales.org/cr-ld8291-e.pdf (http://www.assemblywales.org/cr-ld8291-e.pdf) is a good read, if you are interested in the views of all concerned that were asked to comment on the measure. CFOs et al.
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Anyway, the bottom line is that there is no new law requiring sprinklers in new homes in wales, but lots of good intentions that maybe one day that could now happen. All I wanted to ensure is that people who take firenet as their CPD and perhaps make themselves look silly by quoting some of the stuff that regularly appears here are suitably protected from so doing.
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All I wanted to ensure is that people who take firenet as their CPD and perhaps make themselves look silly by quoting some of the stuff that regularly appears here are suitably protected from so doing.
Thats great Colin, thats why we retain your services here and keep paying your exorbitant fee. :D
But hopefully nobody relies solely on us for CPD. Its a discussion forum with the status of any other internet chatroom. We may help broaden understanding by discussion but firenet cannot be held liable or accountable for what is said by posters. Thats why we need Professional Institutions, Trade Associations, British Standards et al. And thats one reason why I created the CPD thread to point contributors to the definitive sources.
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Kurnal
Would be grateful if you could post some more information on the low pressure water mist system or a suitable link, always interested in new developments.
With regards to the domestic sprinklers situation in Wales as a resident here in the valleys I will keep an eye out for any update of the new proposals.
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Sorry Colonel I think it may be false alarm good intent.
When I read the small print of their marketing literature I am not sure that it takes us any further forward and there may be some sleight of hand. I am happy to forward you a link by personal message but not prepared to post it here.
The manufacturers claim that their "water mist system has been extensively tested under real conditions in mock-ups of original buildings, and is approved and certified by the German VdS, which is equivalent to LPCB ISO 9001."
I dont know what that means.
ISO9001 is just a quality assurance standard. LPCB have a number of schemes for the third party certification of companies in specific fields, eg LPS 1014 for companies engaged in the business of installing fire alarm systems. ISO 9001 or equivalent will be one tiny element of such a scheme. And will not directly relate to the actual performance standard of the installation.
They say they will call me again in a couple of weeks, so will probe them further on this. Meanwhile there is a draft for development standard available from BSI available from this link
http://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDetail/?pid=000000000030218629
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Anyway, the bottom line is that there is no new law requiring sprinklers in new homes in wales, but lots of good intentions that maybe one day that could now happen. All I wanted to ensure is that people who take firenet as their CPD and perhaps make themselves look silly by quoting some of the stuff that regularly appears here are suitably protected from so doing.
Have you stopped quoting Firenet then Colin?
Colin no offence is intended by the following comments. You are a forthright chap so I'll be forthright with you. Please understand and realise that not everyone is as drummed up on fire safety as you are. You know your stuff about fire safety, as you remind us all the time. But not everyone out there does. If atleast people are half informed, even erroneously, about an issue, then even half truths will normally spark enough intrest for the reader to find out the full truth for themselves. They may have otherwise never known about the matter till someone mentioned it in the first place. Thats how people learn. Including you. It's buyer beware, caveat emptor and all that on Firenet. If you believed all you heard in the big wide world you wouldnt be where you are now. Either that or you have a guardian angel, or a good mentor who sky rocketted your career, a bit like most Chief Fire Officers who belong to the right lodge or play at the career boosting Golf Clubs and get promotion.Wheels within wheels and so forth. So think on, and no need to reply Colin, I already know Im right. And before you ask, yes I was quick learner no masonic lodges, but it is so easy to sound like a know it all rather than an expert. Do you know what I mean?.
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I wont get drawn into explaining why a Trade Association is different from a national newspaper. This forum is a discussion group dedicated to the topic of fire and any topics on a fire theme are welcome.
Sometimes topics will arise from misinformation, misconception ir misreporting. If this is the case I am sure we can rely on you Colin and our other regular posters to educate and inform us of the true position. We will all then be better informed.
Sometimes I think we forget that actually, despite all the sniping and backbiting. that we are all dedicated and committed to the same goals of reducing death, injury and loss from fire. I am sure that thats why many sit up to the wee small hours. Some of us do our often inadequate best to answer persons genuine enquiries and try to help people. Other posters help by pointing out the inadequacies, misinformation or misperception of others' answers whilst rarely directly contributing to the content of the debate.
In my view all contributions to the discussion are welcome so long as we dont get personal.
Back to sprinklers any legislation on this topic is indeed a big story and thanks to GFSM for putting the situation into context. There is a slightly different take on the story on info4fire
http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/wales-comes-closer-to-compulsory-residential-sprinklers-video
The legislation under discussion can be found here
http://www.assemblywales.org/ms-ld8131-e.pdf .
The proposal is aimed at new dwellings, care homes or schools providing sleeping accommodation and provides for all parts of the premises including those areas ancillar to the sleeping accommodation to be provided with a fire suppression system (not specifiically sprinklers)
Heres a big new opening for low pressure water mist systems, one such system is now being marketed in the UK, reported to having been tested to new German standards. If anyone is interested I will post more info on this and the compliance standards claimed.
This German company have done a deal with I think 3 UK sprinkler providers and given them exclusive rights to market their mist systems, the sprinkler vs mist debate is indeed an interesting topic and mist does have some benefits over sprinklers but until a lot more testing has been done personally i would not recommend a mist system.
The main benefits of mist are - Less water used and better use of the water used. The main problem seems to be how draft and airflow effects the movement of the mist.
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Having seen a video of trials with a mist system, the movement of the mist allows it to extinguish fires which are underneath objects that would normally act as a shield to water from a sprinkler system.
I suppose it is back to horses for courses again.
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Having seen a video of trials with a mist system, the movement of the mist allows it to extinguish fires which are underneath objects that would normally act as a shield to water from a sprinkler system.
I suppose it is back to horses for courses again.
Yeah ive seen them to and thats what i ment by better use of the water, mist can get places water droplets cant plus mist absorbs more heat. That is however only if there is no airflow in the room pushing the mist in the wrong direction ie out a window or airduct etc
What do you think would happen if a fire started behind a fan that was on full blast? or infront of an open window or duct that had air pushing through it?
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To all sprinkler installers: I would be a little cautious regarding any these new Welsh specifications. We have been told to install & service, to the insurers specifications, Ansul systems in domestic cookers.
Over the domestic cooker Induction Range. With plenum nozzle protection within the induction cooker filter area - blocked by the extraction works so a complete waste of time. Range nozzle, low proximity, at the back FACING the front. In Primary Schools. All of which is none specification but requested.
And now they want sprinklers?? ??? ::) :o
Probably just after a couple of sand buckets with "FIRE" written on them to be placed in the playground, that would be just as safe and practical.
:(
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I have been following the sprinkler debate in Wales for a number of years. I attended a seminar where Anne Jones spoke with great passion. However, I also made a bet with a colleague that it would not happen whilst he was in the fire service, he had 3 years left at the time, he retires in May it is touch and go who will win.
Two concerns -
Some of the early suggestions said that the installation of sprinklers would reduce fire deaths in the home in Wales to zero.
How will the systems be maintained, I have issues now in flats fitted with sprinklers that aren`t being maintained. Most people do not test their smoke alarms
I understand that this doesn`t change ADB and this document covers England and Wales.
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The Welsh Govt will have powers to make their own Building regs by the end of this year. It won't be long before this is all combined into a Welsh AD B (or whatever "B" is in Welsh!).
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Gents,
The devolved building regulations, which I believe are due around December 2011 won't affect ADB because the change requirement is based on Part L and concern environmental issues.
However, I have posed the question to a colleague of mine who works in the WAG BC Office about the proposed changes, and whether or not they affect AD K, AD M & AD N as I was interested in any changes that may affect BS 9999. I am told that there will be no changes to these either.
As far as the Assembly measure goes, I am unsure that the reduction of deaths would reach Zero, even though this would be welcomed by all, I'm sure.
Not wanting to teach anyone to suck eggs - With Maintenance and testing at present it is an annual requirement as per BS 9251:2005, but again only a BS and therefore compliance with EU/BS standards should assist to ensure legal compliance, and this as we all know cannot be relied on as a defence in a court of law. Additionally, there is still much to be discussed in terms of enforcement in such residential premises that are clearly not workplaces.
Also, I haven't heard that ADB is going to be produced as an Welsh version/addendum or appendix.
B in Welsh is B ...... for those not sure...... ::)
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successfully operated and worked here -
http://www.bafsa.org.uk/snews_full.php?id=00000977&exp=N
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Not so good here
http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/150-homeless-after-us-apartment-fire
My point about the Welsh B is that they could just put sprinklers in there rather than faffing around with a seperate piece of bolt on legislation.
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The Welsh Assembly finally passed the new law on sprinklers in new domestic premises last night. Interestingly it not only applies to new build domestic premises but to new care homes and university halls of residence.
See here for full storey in our local press today. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2011/02/17/wales-fire-sprinkler-law-to-save-avoidable-deaths-91466-28185114/
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US study on cost effectiveness of sprinklers versus working smoke alarms:
see
www.prweb.com/releases/2010/11/prweb4808094.htm
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I also made a bet with a colleague that it would not happen whilst he was in the fire service, he had 3 years left at the time, he retires in May it is touch and go who will win.
Guess I owe him a beer.
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Not yet.
The measure won't take effect until the Welsh Government pass some regulations - Probably another six months at least.