Domestic sprinkler Law passed in Wales

[Clevelandfire 3]

Anyway, the bottom line is that there is no new law requiring sprinklers in new homes in wales, but lots of good intentions that maybe one day that could now happen.  All I wanted to ensure is that people who take firenet as their CPD and perhaps make themselves look silly by quoting some of the stuff that regularly appears here are suitably protected from so doing.

Have you stopped quoting Firenet then Colin?

Colin no offence is intended by the following comments. You are a forthright chap so I'll be forthright with you. Please understand and realise that not everyone is as drummed up on fire safety as you are. You know your stuff about fire safety, as you remind us all the time. But not everyone out there does. If atleast people are half informed, even erroneously, about an issue, then even half truths will normally spark enough intrest for the reader to find out the full truth for themselves. They may have otherwise never known about the matter till someone mentioned it in the first place. Thats how people learn. Including you. It's buyer beware, caveat emptor and all that on Firenet. If you believed all you heard in the big wide world you wouldnt be where you are now. Either that or you have a guardian angel, or a good mentor who sky rocketted your career, a bit like most Chief Fire Officers who belong to the right lodge or play at the career boosting Golf Clubs and get promotion.Wheels within wheels and so forth. So think on, and no need to reply Colin, I already know Im right. And before you ask, yes I was quick learner no masonic lodges, but it is so easy to sound like a know it all rather than an expert. Do you know what I mean?.

[H2OFS]

I wont get drawn into explaining why a Trade Association is different from a national newspaper.  This forum is a discussion group dedicated to the topic of fire and any topics on a fire theme are welcome.

Sometimes topics will arise from misinformation, misconception ir misreporting. If this is the case I am sure we can rely on  you Colin and our other regular posters to educate and inform us of the true position. We will all then be better informed.

Sometimes I think we forget that actually, despite all the sniping and backbiting. that we are all dedicated and committed to the same goals of reducing death, injury and loss from fire. I am sure that thats why many sit up to the wee small hours. Some of us do our often inadequate best to answer persons genuine enquiries and try to help people. Other posters help by pointing out the inadequacies, misinformation or misperception of others' answers whilst rarely directly contributing to the content of the debate.   

In my view all contributions to the discussion are welcome so long as we dont get personal.

Back to sprinklers any legislation on this topic is indeed a big story and thanks to GFSM  for putting the situation into context. There is a slightly different take on the story on info4fire

http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/wales-comes-closer-to-compulsory-residential-sprinklers-video

The legislation under discussion can be found here

http://www.assemblywales.org/ms-ld8131-e.pdf .

The proposal is aimed at new dwellings, care homes or schools providing sleeping accommodation and provides for all parts of the premises including those areas ancillar to the sleeping accommodation to be provided with a fire suppression system (not specifiically sprinklers)

Heres a big new opening for low pressure water mist systems, one such system is now being marketed in the UK, reported to having been tested to new German standards. If anyone is interested I will post more info on this and the compliance standards claimed.

This German company have done a deal with I think 3 UK sprinkler providers and given them exclusive rights to market their mist systems, the sprinkler vs mist debate is indeed an interesting topic and mist does have some benefits over sprinklers but until a lot more testing has been done personally i would not recommend a mist system.
The main benefits of mist are - Less water used and better use of the water used. The main problem seems to be how draft and airflow effects the movement of the mist.

[Mike Buckley]

Having seen a video of trials with a mist system, the movement of the mist allows it to extinguish fires which are underneath objects that would normally act as a shield to water from a sprinkler system.

I suppose it is back to horses for courses again.

[H2OFS]

Having seen a video of trials with a mist system, the movement of the mist allows it to extinguish fires which are underneath objects that would normally act as a shield to water from a sprinkler system.

I suppose it is back to horses for courses again.

Yeah ive seen them to and thats what i ment by better use of the water, mist can get places water droplets cant plus mist absorbs more heat. That is however only if there is no airflow in the room pushing the mist in the wrong direction ie out a window or airduct etc

What do you think would happen if a fire started behind a fan that was on full blast? or infront of an open window or duct that had air pushing through it?

[Psuedonym]

To all sprinkler installers: I would be a little cautious regarding any these new Welsh specifications. We have been told to install & service, to the insurers specifications, Ansul systems in domestic cookers.
Over the domestic cooker Induction Range. With plenum nozzle protection within the induction cooker filter area - blocked by the extraction works so a complete waste of time. Range nozzle, low proximity, at the back FACING the front. In Primary Schools. All of which is none specification but requested.
And now they want sprinklers??   
Probably just after a couple of sand buckets with "FIRE" written on them to be placed in the playground, that would be just as safe and practical.
 

[Dinnertime Dave]

I have been following the sprinkler debate in Wales for a number of years. I attended a seminar where Anne Jones spoke with great passion. However, I also made a bet with a colleague that it would not happen whilst he was in the fire service, he had 3 years left at the time, he retires in May it is touch and go who will win.

Two concerns -

Some of the early suggestions said that the installation of sprinklers would reduce fire deaths in the home in Wales to zero.

How will the systems be maintained, I have issues now in flats fitted with sprinklers that aren`t being maintained. Most people do not test their smoke alarms

I understand that this doesn`t change ADB and this document covers England and Wales.   

   

[wee brian]

The Welsh Govt will have powers to make their own Building regs by the end of this year. It won't be long before this is all combined into a Welsh AD B (or whatever "B" is in Welsh!).

[deaconj999]

Gents,

The devolved building regulations, which I believe are due around December 2011 won't affect ADB because the change requirement is based on Part L and concern environmental issues.

However, I have posed the question to a colleague of mine who works in the WAG BC Office about the proposed changes, and whether or not they affect AD K, AD M & AD N as I was interested in any changes that may affect BS 9999. I am told that there will be no changes to these either.

As far as the Assembly measure goes, I am unsure that the reduction of deaths would reach Zero, even though this would be welcomed by all, I'm sure.

Not wanting to teach anyone to suck eggs - With Maintenance and testing at present it is an annual requirement as per BS 9251:2005, but again only a BS and therefore compliance with EU/BS standards should assist to ensure legal compliance, and this as we all know cannot be relied on as a defence in a court of law. Additionally, there is still much to be discussed in terms of enforcement in such residential premises that are clearly not workplaces.
Also, I haven't heard that ADB is going to be produced as an Welsh version/addendum or appendix.

B in Welsh is B ...... for those not sure......

[Dinnertime Dave]

successfully operated and worked here -

http://www.bafsa.org.uk/snews_full.php?id=00000977&exp=N

[wee brian]

Not so good here

http://www.info4fire.com/news-content/full/150-homeless-after-us-apartment-fire

My point about the Welsh B is that they could just put sprinklers in there rather than faffing around with a seperate piece of bolt on legislation.

[The Colonel]

The Welsh Assembly finally passed the new law on sprinklers in new domestic premises last night. Interestingly it not only applies to new build domestic premises but to new care homes and university halls of residence.

See here for full storey in our local press today. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2011/02/17/wales-fire-sprinkler-law-to-save-avoidable-deaths-91466-28185114/

[Gel]

US study on cost effectiveness of sprinklers versus working smoke alarms:

see
www.prweb.com/releases/2010/11/prweb4808094.htm

[Dinnertime Dave]

I also made a bet with a colleague that it would not happen whilst he was in the fire service, he had 3 years left at the time, he retires in May it is touch and go who will win.
 

Guess I owe him a beer.

[wee brian]

Not yet.

The measure won't take effect until the Welsh Government pass some regulations - Probably another six months at least.