FireNet Community
FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Technical Advice => Topic started by: lyledunn on March 02, 2011, 08:52:19 PM
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The entertainment licence enforcement officer is insisting that the door set from the lounge of an existing club is 850mm. It was widened under his instruction but when measured from the back edge to the stop it is circa 830mm. It is an absolute pox to amend because of certain structural matters. However, this door leads on to an escape corridor that narrows to 830mm for most of its length, so it seems rather odd since he is prepared to accept this.
The door will provide escape for no more than 100 people from a small lounge area. Looking at 9999 it would seem more than adequate yet DSA inadequate. I have suggested enhancing the FA system to include appropriately positioned ASDs but that didnt seem to sway. I fully respect his position and I am not looking for ammunition but do these officers get too stuck on one guide or another?
Regards,
Lyle Dunn
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Lyle
Where does the ELO get 850mm from? Wheelchair access?
When you say Officer what do you mean? Is this a person from the Council or F&R Service? Do you mean official?
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Lyle
You can widen the door to 2m but your MoE is still 830mm, so what's the point?
I agree compensate with ASD if absent, management procedures also, surely that is reasonable?
Most IOs quote 9999 now, IMHO leaves too much to individual interpretation.
davo
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He will possibly be taking the 850mm from ADB, this differentiates between 750mm and 850mm exits. (60 persons and 110 persons respectively) Since the building is up and running, the CLG guidance is clearly the most appropriate, and that doesn't differentiate between the two sizes. i.e 100 persons for 750mm, with an extra 15 persons for each extra 75mm, so in your case 115 persons if the premises is 'normal' risk. Approved Document M gives 800mm as a minimum for a head-on approach.
However, I vaguely recall some research somewhere that shows that people can pass through a 850 door marginally quicker than a smaller door, as they take less time to 'line themselves up with it', and following this any slight narrowing of the corridor won't have the same impact as the initial width of the opening that people have to aim for. People are simply walking single file and their speed should not alter until the corridor is considerably narrower than 830.
One question I would have is why is the licensing officer concerning himself with what is essentially a fire safety matter?
From the guidance regarding the Licensing Act 2003:
"Licensing authorities should note that under article 43 of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 any conditions imposed by the licensing authority that relate to any requirements or prohibitions that are or could be imposed by the Order have no effect."
"In most premises existing legislation will provide adequately for the safety of the public or club members and guests. However, where this is not the case, consideration might be given to the following conditions."
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Civvy. You are referring to mainland legislation and standards. This is a N.I. issue.
I however thought about extrapolation being used here but that does not seem to fit.
Licencing officials here are responsible for fire safety matters with regards to Entertainment Licencing under specific NI legislation.
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Civvy, that is interesting about lining up. Maybe you will recall where it came from. It might impact significantly in this case.
Nearlythere, as far as I know the chap is an officer of the Council who has made this determination following the application for an Entertainment Licence. So I guess that he is an Entertainment Licence enforcement officer.
I have e-mailed him to ask to what guidance he is referring to.
Regards,
Lyle Dunn
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Lyle,
If the route is for no more than 100 people then I can tell you with my foot in my mouth my hand on my heart that 830mm is ample (unless there is a "petrol juggling flame thrower" in the room). The disabled access is another issue that requires separate assessment.
Stu
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On a related note (not intended to be thread hijack), what minimum requirement is there for door leaf width in a double door final exit. Does each door leaf have to be of a certain width?
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Theres a lot to this apparently simple question. On the face of it, for means of escape from fire provided both leaves open together at the same time in the direction of escape in theory they could be equally sized leaves of 380mm minimum. and of course you have to consider the number of persons who may need to use the exit and provide an appropriate width.
But that would be a nightmare for two way travel unless the doors were double swing and an absolute nightmare for non ambulant persons.
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Thought the minimum size of leaf was 525 (single exit width min).
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It might be in a special situation Mr P such as a wicket door in a factory. But we dont have the context so I had to guess and keep it general. I had saloon type doors in mind.
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Civvy, that is interesting about lining up. Maybe you will recall where it came from. It might impact significantly in this case.
Nearlythere, as far as I know the chap is an officer of the Council who has made this determination following the application for an Entertainment Licence. So I guess that he is an Entertainment Licence enforcement officer.
I have e-mailed him to ask to what guidance he is referring to.
Regards,
Lyle Dunn
Lyledunn. I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer.
He may very well consider fire safety matters within his inspections and advise you that he considers your MofE to be inadequate, and theres nothing stopping him telling you what he thinks you should do.
BUT... he cannot impose it or enforce it. Fire Safety requirements can only be enforced under the FSO and the enforcing authority for a club is your Local fire Authority.
Have you had a recent Fire Safety inspection by your local FRS? did they pick it up?
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"I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer."
Fraid it can tmprojects.
Schedule 1 of The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 applies.
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"I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer."
Fraid it can tmprojects.
Schedule 1 of The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 applies.
Ah! Northern Ireland! i missed that.
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"I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer."
Fraid it can tmprojects.
Schedule 1 of The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 applies.
Ah! Northern Ireland! i missed that.
Since the lack of front page headlines these days,most people do generally!
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"Since the lack of front page headlines these days,most people do generally!"
And long may it continue Buzz.
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Theres a lot to this apparently simple question. On the face of it, for means of escape from fire provided both leaves open together at the same time in the direction of escape in theory they could be equally sized leaves of 380mm minimum. and of course you have to consider the number of persons who may need to use the exit and provide an appropriate width.
But that would be a nightmare for two way travel unless the doors were double swing and an absolute nightmare for non ambulant persons.
thanks. To put in context, not a special situation and the total width is 1200mm with 2x600mm doors. No more than 110 people and the exit is only used for this purpose with no need for 2 way travel through the doorway as it only serves one area. Just wondering if i would have a DDA issue with the door leaves being under 850mm. I would think not as long as they open together in the direction of travel.