Author Topic: Door Width  (Read 15628 times)

Offline lyledunn

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Door Width
« on: March 02, 2011, 08:52:19 PM »
The entertainment licence enforcement officer is insisting that the door set from the lounge of an existing club is 850mm. It was widened under his instruction but when measured from the back edge to the stop it is circa 830mm. It is an absolute pox to amend because of certain structural matters. However, this door leads on to an escape corridor that narrows to 830mm for most of its length, so it seems rather odd since he is prepared to accept this.
The door will provide escape for no more than 100 people from a small lounge area. Looking at 9999 it would seem more than adequate yet DSA inadequate. I have suggested enhancing the FA system to include appropriately positioned ASDs but that didnt seem to sway. I fully respect his position and I am not looking for ammunition but do these officers get too stuck on one guide or another?
Regards,
Lyle Dunn

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2011, 06:37:33 AM »
Lyle
Where does the ELO get 850mm from? Wheelchair access?
When you say Officer what do you mean? Is this a person from the Council or F&R Service? Do you mean official?
 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 07:52:43 AM by nearlythere »
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Davo

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2011, 11:32:59 AM »
Lyle

You can widen the door to 2m but your MoE is still 830mm, so what's the point?
I agree compensate with ASD if absent, management procedures also, surely that is reasonable?

Most IOs quote 9999 now, IMHO leaves too much to individual interpretation.

davo

Offline CivvyFSO

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2011, 01:42:43 PM »
He will possibly be taking the 850mm from ADB, this differentiates between 750mm and 850mm exits. (60 persons and 110 persons respectively) Since the building is up and running, the CLG guidance is clearly the most appropriate, and that doesn't differentiate between the two sizes. i.e 100 persons for 750mm, with an extra 15 persons for each extra 75mm, so in your case 115 persons if the premises is 'normal' risk. Approved Document M gives 800mm as a minimum for a head-on approach.

However, I vaguely recall some research somewhere that shows that people can pass through a 850 door marginally quicker than a smaller door, as they take less time to 'line themselves up with it', and following this any slight narrowing of the corridor won't have the same impact as the initial width of the opening that people have to aim for. People are simply walking single file and their speed should not alter until the corridor is considerably narrower than 830.

One question I would have is why is the licensing officer concerning himself with what is essentially a fire safety matter?

From the guidance regarding the Licensing Act 2003:

"Licensing authorities should note that under article 43 of the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 any conditions imposed by the licensing authority that relate to any requirements or prohibitions that are or could be imposed by the Order have no effect."

"In most premises existing legislation will provide adequately for the safety of the public or club members and guests. However, where this is not the case, consideration might be given to the following conditions."

Offline nearlythere

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2011, 03:04:39 PM »
Civvy. You are referring to mainland legislation and standards. This is a N.I. issue.
I however thought about extrapolation being used here but that does not seem to fit.
Licencing officials here are responsible for fire safety matters with regards to Entertainment Licencing under specific NI legislation.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline lyledunn

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2011, 04:58:13 PM »
Civvy, that is interesting about lining up. Maybe you will recall where it came from. It might impact significantly in this case.
Nearlythere, as far as I know the chap is an officer of the Council who has made this determination following the application for an Entertainment Licence. So I guess that he is an Entertainment Licence enforcement officer.
I have e-mailed him to ask to what guidance he is referring to.
Regards,
Lyle Dunn

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2011, 09:24:58 PM »
Lyle,

If the route is for no more than 100 people then I can tell you with my foot in my mouth my hand on my heart that 830mm is ample (unless there is a "petrol juggling flame thrower" in the room).  The disabled access is another issue that requires separate assessment.

Stu


Offline ahmedh

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2011, 12:48:16 PM »
On a related note (not intended to be thread hijack), what minimum requirement is there for door leaf width in a double door final exit. Does each door leaf have to be of a certain width?

Offline kurnal

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2011, 06:34:29 PM »
Theres a lot to this apparently simple question. On the face of it, for means of escape from fire provided both leaves open together at the same time in the direction of escape in theory they could be equally sized leaves of 380mm minimum. and of course you have to consider the number of persons who may need to use the exit and provide an appropriate width.

But that would be a nightmare for two way travel unless the doors were double swing and an absolute nightmare for non ambulant persons.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2011, 10:13:20 PM by kurnal »

Offline Mr. P

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2011, 08:05:31 AM »
Thought the minimum size of leaf was 525 (single exit width min).

Offline kurnal

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2011, 07:22:15 PM »
It might be in a special situation Mr P such as a wicket door in a factory. But we dont have the context so I had to guess and keep it general. I had saloon type doors in mind.

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2011, 09:55:10 PM »
Civvy, that is interesting about lining up. Maybe you will recall where it came from. It might impact significantly in this case.
Nearlythere, as far as I know the chap is an officer of the Council who has made this determination following the application for an Entertainment Licence. So I guess that he is an Entertainment Licence enforcement officer.
I have e-mailed him to ask to what guidance he is referring to.
Regards,
Lyle Dunn

Lyledunn. I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer.

He may very well consider fire safety matters within his inspections and advise you that he considers your MofE to be inadequate, and theres nothing stopping him telling you what he thinks you should do.

BUT... he cannot impose it or enforce it. Fire Safety requirements can only be enforced under the FSO and the enforcing authority for a club is your Local fire Authority.

Have you had a recent Fire Safety inspection by your local FRS? did they pick it up?




Offline nearlythere

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2011, 11:04:59 PM »
"I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer."

Fraid it can tmprojects.

Schedule 1 of The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 applies.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline tmprojects

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2011, 12:30:30 AM »
"I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer."

Fraid it can tmprojects.

Schedule 1 of The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 applies.


Ah! Northern Ireland! i missed that.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 12:32:49 AM by tmprojects »

Offline Allen Higginson

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Re: Door Width
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2011, 08:15:43 AM »
"I am pretty certain that nothing Fire Safety can be enforced, that would normally be enforced under the fire safety order, within the licensing act. Therefore nothing Fire Safety related can be imposed on your license or be required by the licensing officer."

Fraid it can tmprojects.

Schedule 1 of The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order 1985 applies.


Ah! Northern Ireland! i missed that.
Since the lack of front page headlines these days,most people do generally!