FireNet Community
THE REGULATORY REFORM (FIRE SAFETY) ORDER 2005 => Q & A => Topic started by: DavyFire on August 10, 2011, 10:51:39 PM
-
Hi all,
City centre development in N. Ireland, 20+ years old, mixed use commercial / residential, courtyard style with no vehicular access.
About 18 shop units - retail / office / cafes etc. Approx 30 private flats mainly 1st floor above the shop units with a few on the ground floor. Most flats have individual access to a raised walkway and down steps to ground level. A few blocks of 3-4 flats using a shared stairs and front door.
The Query!
Landlord wishes to carry out fire evacuation drills for the housing tenants (not the shops and offices) to ensure they evacuate when the fire alarm sounds. What happens if they don't evacuate? Has the landlord any powers, or can the tenants just ignore the fire drill(and the actuation of the fire alarm at other times)
Comments please!
Davy
-
First query would be - does the alarm actually need to extend to the flats based on layout and construction!
If it does then fair enough, but there can be no compulsion for tenants to take part. Depending when it's done most will be out anyway, others won't hear it if it's common areas only & some might even go for one of the sounders with a heavy object!
The fact that most tenants won't respond to a general alarm is one of the cases for compartmentation as first resort, installing a building wide alarm as a last resort.
-
When would the landlord carry out the test? Daytime when most will be out? Night time when most will be asleep? Evening time when many will be out, having dinner, watching tv, relaxing, chilling out, etc etc.
What does he do if nobody leaves?
Is it realistic and is the landlord just ticking a box?
Is it not adequate to provide tenents with written advice?
-
This is why we don't use general alarms in blocks of flats.
-
But sadly, Brian, some , including certain posters, do so.
-
It's like hitting your head against a brick wall. Not unsurprisingly the fire alarm people don't like it and I'm constantly sparring with them on firealarmengineers.com
Upset an M&E contractor client who wanted to upgrade alarms in 5 blocks of flats (built to code) and had had the tenants saving up for years only to point out that the systems were not required, some existing stuff should go and instead the money would be better spent on all the smoke vents as everyone on every floor had been inoperative for years, plus the controls were poorly installed in 2, with no manual control on one and the other hurriedly bunged next to the panel in the first floor (using a red MCP no yellow)
-
Quite a gree. A large RSL / housing provider I've had dealings with is going through a major process of installing communal / common alarm systems in all of their high rise blocks. Not a very good idea at all. It is costing thousands upon thousands of pounds as you can imagine, and will serve no useful purpose at all.
-
Midland, why don't you 'tell' them not to? If you know something is wrong, and you are the enforcing authority, then you should put it right.
-
Enforcing authority?? Not me chummie !!
Although I have explained to them that they should re-consider, and chat with their local friendly fire inspector for further advice / guidance etc etc.
-
Sorry for not replying sooner, been busy, then couldn't logon until Kurnal fixed it for me. Thanks for the comments.
Latest update after a site visit. Originally staff were employed to oversee the complex, check out alarms and call the FS or reset the fire alarm anel. For a few years now due to cutbacks, no staff on duty except the working day. Then it transpires that some of the tenants have keys for the fire alarm panels, go down silence it and go back to bed. There are four panels, one for each block, contained in a locked store to prevent vandalism.
As stated in earlier replies, there is good compartmentation so no need for the shop alarms to sound throughout the premises. I feel it would be built a lot differently today. Unfortunately it has become custom and practice for the tenants to silence the alarms themselves without checking or calling the FS.
The fire alarm engineer supposes if the tenants cannot silence the alarm then it will probably be pulled off the wall in bits. Each flat have their own self contained fire alarm.
Just to make things worse the complex is locked at night to deter intruders. two access gates have EOD's on the inside to allow tenants out, but if a tenant calls a doctor or ambulance they have no access into the complex unless the tenant opens the gate. The FS can cut the lock for entry. After much debate one gate is left permanently unlocked. Which would be worse, some vandalism, or a doctor unable to reach a heart attack victim?
DavyFire
-
Civvy, there is an ENFORCING AUTHORITY that shall remain nameless, but for the sake of the record shall be referred to a Sest Wussex that has used the powers of enforcement to make people put fire alarm systems into high rise purpose built flats. Their fire safety officer said it was a requirement of their operational people. Just remind me, who is running the asylum these days.
-
Oh dear.
There's simply no reply to that. I despair.
-
Civvy, as I sense that deep down you mean well, even though you dont like me, herewith an invitation to a tour of a high rise block in the area in question, along with sight of the enforcement notices and the notices on the backs of the flat doors required by the fire and rescue authority to tell tenants the evacuation procedures and the location of the assembly point, which had to be reprinted as the F&RS did not like themselves being described as a fire brigade, rather than fire and rescue service.
We can go for fish and chips in paper at the seaside afterwards, skim stones and ponder why I often have a psycopathic dislike of inspecting officers, though the last one I met on site at this place said he agreed that what his colleagues had required was nonsense and he would ask for reconsideration and revert. Alas he retired god knows how long later and never did revert. It didnt matter as the system was already in, having cost some tens of thousands of pounds and as Tony said, keeping the fire alarm industry bouyant.
-
as the F&RS did not like themselves being described as a fire brigade, rather than fire and rescue service.
Would it be correct to call Open reach the GPO? Or Network Rail Southern railways, or LMS? Or a CD an LP? Or call an e mail a telegram and have it delivered by a 16 year old on a BSA bantam? ;)
The Government (the previous one) enforced the change nationally from "Brigade" to Fire and Rescue Service, against the will of many; but it is here……….. move with the times ………………….especially related to legal documentation.
This constant negativity towards Fire and Rescue Services is boring. ::)
-
Civvy, as I sense that deep down you mean well, even though you dont like me,
Shock :o there are others out there that dont lick your boots?, what a surprise ;D
-
Samuel, I was not aware that the notice that you need to install on the back of all flat entrance doors in a high rise block telling people to call the fire brigade in the event of fire and to assemble in the pouring rain, probably breaking your leg as to run down the 14 storeys cos the fire brigade demanded that the lift grounded as well when the communal fire alarm system operates, was a legal document. I think you might have missed the point somehow.
And as long as you get such incredible stupidity amongst fire brigades as to turn out 14 storeys of purpose built flats when the smoke detectors in the common parts operate, I will continue to plug away at knocking it. Learn to live with it, as they are unlikely to stop doing such stupid things in my lifetime. (By the way, the best fire brigade in the whole of London is still a fire brigade and if its good enough for such an elite band of geezers, I am sure it would be fine for everyone.)
-
Civvy, there is an ENFORCING AUTHORITY that shall remain nameless, but for the sake of the record shall be referred to a Sest Wussex that has used the powers of enforcement to make people put fire alarm systems into high rise purpose built flats. Their fire safety officer said it was a requirement of their operational people. Just remind me, who is running the asylum these days.
Just came across this following a Fire Risk Assessment I did for a block of flats a couple of years ago where I had asked for structural fire safety issues to be addressed to the exclusion of AFD. I find out now that the managing agent pays an annual fire alarm service fee which is a fair indicator that it installed the detection system in order to compensate for a multitude of sins in the construction of the building which was cleared by BC I might add. OK it is possible that lives may not be lost so long as the system has not been switched off, but I can see a significant loss of building in the event of a fire.
Maybe they didn't like my assessment and got in someone who had attended a 3 day FRA course.
-
A person who will remain nameless but for the purposes of this post will be called Tolin Codd wrote a 5 billion page guide on tower blocks and said you can have AFD in leu of poor FR
-
The concept is not new Cleveland, but if I brought you up to the date of the 1970s at long last my living has not been in vain.
-
It didnt colin I was there well before but its very sweet to think you thought you transformed my mind. But for the record many think afd in leu of fr is not an acceptable trade off as it is not a recognised compensatory feature in flats.even an l1 wouldnt be considered enough of a compenstion.the building regs. not to say i dont agree with you though colin and to be fair i did like your guide. better than clg guides as it happens. give yourself a biscuit.
-
It depends on what you class as 'poor'. Nominal 30 minutes instead of a required 60 is different to a 60 minutes full of 0 minute holes etc.
I've seen higher than benchmark AFD (L1 instead of M or L4) accepted in lieu of full FR upgrades accepted as an alternative solution to an Enforcement Notice requirement before, although admittedly on commercial premises.