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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: The Colonel on August 19, 2011, 11:01:48 AM
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Ladies and Gentlemen looking to pick your brains and knowledge of self closing devices.
Recently undertook a fire risk assessment on a small care home for young persons with severe learning difficulties, 6 residents with 1 to 1 care during day and 2 staff on at night (1 awake, 1 sleeping). Fire alarm to L1, emergency lighting, fire doors etc. The house is on 3 levels due to sloping ground. lower ground floor has two bedrooms, office/night staff bedroom and a bathroom also an exit door direct to outside. Ground floor has a well protected kitchen, entrance hall, dining room and lounge. 1st floor 4 bedrooms. All doors within the house are either fitted with normal self closing devices or swing free self closer's hard wired to the fire alarm.
The problem that is giving me a headache is one of the bedroom doors on the lower ground floor, the self closer has been removed. Reasons for removal were given as resident catching fingers in between leading edge of door and frame, also there are times when it is necessary for staff to restrain the resident and exit the room quickly and a self closing door gets in the way.
As the bedroom door opens onto the short corridor and stairs that lead unrestricted to 1st floor I have asked for a self closer to be reinstated. A swing free device would be ideal however the home has indicated that the resident would likely damage the cable between to door part and the part located upon the frame. I am considering asking for a fire door between lower ground and ground to reduce compartment size and protect the escape route from 1st floor which would help.
My question is has anyone come across a similar situation and if so were you able to resolve it, also does anyone know of a suitable self closing device that could be installed without any wires, cables etc that could be damaged. I have considered the new wire free self closure from our friends down south but it is only a Cat C device and the location at present will require a Cat A device.
Thanks
The Colonel
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Colonel
When you say that staff may have to exit the room quickly is it so they can close the door and secure it?
When might they have the opportunity to damage the cable? When they are locked in? If so, can the self closer not be so installed
that any cabling is outside the room?
I take it the doors open inwards?
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Nearlythere
On occasions staff have to exit a room when a client has a violent episode, during such episodes the resident is placed in his room but as I understand not locked in. When placing him in the room they have to make a rapid exit and a closed door can be a problem, also the door closer would restrict them in closing a door..
Staff have indicated that the resident is likely to interfere with the cable which would be inside his room. Yes the door opens into the room. The cable for a swing free self closer is normally on the same side as the closer and not sure if there would be sufficient length to go through the door and onto exterior frame. If a longer cable is used would it affect any certification etc of the device.
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Can the closer not be located on the outside with the mechanism on the door and the arm on the frame? I seem to remember that this is or was preferrable to have it on the non risk side.
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Colonel
How about this
http://www.perko-powermatic.com/
with this
http://www.doortech.co.uk/
would that be any use in your situation?
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The new swing free radio actuated device is not Cat C, Field Marshall.
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Colin
Check their own description it quotes Category C with regards to BS 7273-4
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Perhaps with the large number of care premises currently being required to fit swing frees that they never had or removed Fireco may with to develop a FreeDor X which if it receives a signal from a System X hard-wired transmitter should be Cat A.
The current FreeDor is like the original DorGard and only activates on acoustic activation from a nearby sounder & internal battery failure so wouldn't be class A.
(Info based on FireCo literature)
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Would such a system "X" be electronically interfaced to the alarm system or does it still rely on accoustic coupling between a fire alarm sounder and the system "X" transmitter? I am only asking because I am not familiar with the product.
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Hi Colonel. Sounds to me like the situation needs a risk assessed and balanced solution, your separating door sounds like a good risk control measure that would balance out a weakness elsewhere.
Remember that BS 7273 part 4 was never intended to be interpreted as a prescriptive requirement but sought to give a detailed technical background to the issues involved in order to properly inform your final decision. Likewise the tables at the back were intended as examples but not prescription. It sounds like the various risks have to be balanced in this case, provided you follow the principles of prevention you will not go far wrong.
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He does not want to use non Cat A in the enclosure of a protected stairway Big Al. I know what the Fireco literature says but perhaps Thomas can explain why they reckon its Cat C and not Cat B.
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Yes Colin but if I read his posting correctly he is proposing to put a door between the room in question and the stairway.
And it sounds like is a very small building, and there is full detection, and the staff are well trained and understand the service users as there is an excellent staffing ratio, (in most care homes it is around 20:1 at night, here it is 3:1 at night). The technical guidance in HTM88 perhaps may be relevant as a benchmark.
A fire risk assessor might legitimately consider a gap analysis between the safety and security offered by Cat C compared to Cat A device and might feel that some of these strengths will go some way to closing the gap and balancing the risks. After all from the sound of it the carer is likely to smell the fire before the fire alarm picks it up.
Its absolutely right to look at other Health Safety and Welfare issues and to consider these when determining your general fire precautions.
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Would such a system "X" be electronically interfaced to the alarm system or does it still rely on accoustic coupling between a fire alarm sounder and the system "X" transmitter? I am only asking because I am not familiar with the product.
The System x is wired into the fire alarm system so will respond to fire, fault, etc as per Category A and then radio communicates with Dorgard X units in it's range to release.
Freedor is currently only acoustically coupled with nearby sounders, but I think if they get the product out quick enough they may be onto a winner if they bring out a Freedor X that will respond to a System X transmitter that's integrated into the fire alarm system.
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Well Big Al, I hope the risk assessment also cconsiders failure modes and their possible common mode nature-if a sounder fails so people are not alerted its not too funny, but if a sounder fails and a critical door fails to close its really bad Karma, but I am sure the Field Marshall can work all this out for himself.
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With regards to Freedor being Cat C or Cat B. I have spoken with my MD about this, it was noted some time ago.
As you will see Fireco have identified Freedor and Dorgard as Cat C products however as Colin was so heavily involved in the production of the British Standard, I would be a fool to disagree with him and will have our marketing literature and website updated to reflect the correct category for the devices is Cat B not Cat A.
We already have a Cat A device which is hardwired into the panel and communicates with the door devices using radio technology.
I would say for your situation, Freedor would look like an ideal product, provided it is reflected in the risk assessment, tested and maintained correctly. Freedor is ONLY available to traders.
http://www.firecoltd.com/Fire/freedor/how_it_works.aspx
http://www.firecoltd.com/Fire/dorgardx.aspx
Apologies to the MODs, Im not advertising , simply responding.
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Gentlemen
Thank you for your contributions and guidance, I am off back to the care home on wednesday to discuss options with them and the advice here has been helpful. Piglet thanks for your contribution and advise on products which are helpful. Had some problems in the past in a different care home where they had located hold open devices in Cat C where Cat A was needed, the X systems would have been ideal there, but they still haven't installed it.
Will update you all later.
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We already have a Cat A device which is hardwired into the panel and communicates with the door devices using radio technology.
But not Freedor? Your website says that it's only acoustic unlike the Dorgard that has a version that is radio linked to the hardwired transmitter.
Do you plan to make a 'Freedor X'
I ask as there are about 600 fire doors across a property portfolio that might benefit from this if so!
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The current Cat A product we have is system X, not Freedor.
I have no doubt there are plans to make a hardwired radio Freedor however most specifiers (architects) asked us to make the freedor acoustic for ease of install and for price. The acoustic technology used in Freedor is very intelligent and due to its height when installed it cuts out false actuations.
I will pass on your comments to the development department though.
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Thomas, I am intrigued as to the rationale for saying it was Cat C. They must have had something in mind. Why did they say Cat C instead of Cat B?
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You can now see on our website we have changed Freedors category to CAT B not CAT C. http://www.firecoltd.com/Fire.aspx
So Hardwired System X is A
Freedor is B
Dorgard is B
This has quite a big impact on the market as it will make other radio units Cat C if they use a booster. So generally over 100m site specific range will need a booster. If that booster is wireless it will down grade the system to Cat C.
So be aware that if you purchase a Cat A system and you need to add a booster due to the range being short or too many doors, unless that booster is hard wired, the system is Cat C. Our hardwired radio product does not require any boosters.
Apologies for any confussion however at least our products have been upgraded and not down graded.
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Piglet, looking at the link you posted both products still say Cat C in the bullet points.
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Apologies jokar, a new skin was being put on. All ammended now though
Thanks for letting me know. :)