Care Home Bedroom door closer.

[The Colonel]

Ladies and Gentlemen looking to pick your brains and knowledge of self closing devices.

Recently undertook a fire risk assessment on a small care home for young persons with severe learning difficulties, 6 residents with 1 to 1 care during day and 2 staff on at night (1 awake, 1 sleeping). Fire alarm to L1, emergency lighting, fire doors etc. The house is on 3 levels due to sloping ground. lower ground floor has two bedrooms, office/night staff bedroom and a bathroom also an exit door direct to outside. Ground floor has a well protected kitchen, entrance hall, dining room and lounge. 1st floor 4 bedrooms. All doors within the house are either fitted with normal self closing devices or swing free self closer's hard wired to the fire alarm.

The problem that is giving me a headache is one of the bedroom doors on the lower ground floor, the self closer has been removed. Reasons for removal were given as resident catching fingers in between leading edge of door and frame, also there are times when it is necessary for staff to restrain the resident and exit the room quickly and a self closing door gets in the way.

As the bedroom door opens onto the short corridor and stairs that lead unrestricted to 1st floor I have asked for a self closer to be reinstated. A swing free device would be ideal however the home has indicated that the resident would likely damage the cable between to door part and the part located upon the frame. I am considering asking for a fire door between lower ground and ground to reduce compartment size and protect the escape route from 1st floor which would help.

My question is has anyone come across a similar situation and if so were you able to resolve it, also does anyone know of a suitable self closing device that could be installed without any wires, cables etc that could be damaged. I have considered the new wire free self closure from our friends down south but it is only a Cat C device and the location at present will require a Cat A device.

Thanks
The Colonel

[nearlythere]

Colonel

When you say that staff may have to exit the room quickly is it so they can close the door and secure it?
When might they have the opportunity to damage the cable? When they are locked in? If so, can the self closer not be so installed
that any cabling is outside the room?
I take it the doors open inwards?

[The Colonel]

Nearlythere

On occasions staff have to exit a room when a client has a violent episode, during such episodes the resident is placed in his room but as I understand not locked in. When placing him in the room they have to make a rapid exit and a closed door can be a problem, also the door closer would restrict them in closing a door..

Staff have indicated that the resident is likely to interfere with the cable which would be inside his room. Yes the door opens into the room. The cable for a swing free self closer is normally on the same side as the closer and not sure if there would be sufficient length to go through the door and onto exterior frame. If a longer cable is used would it affect any certification etc of the device.

[nearlythere]

Can the closer not be located on the outside with the mechanism on the door and the arm on the frame? I seem to remember that this is or was preferrable to have it on the non risk side.

[Ricardo]

Colonel

How about  this
http://www.perko-powermatic.com/
with this
http://www.doortech.co.uk/
would that be any use in your situation?

[colin todd]

The new swing free radio actuated device is not Cat C, Field Marshall.

[The Colonel]

Colin

Check their own description it quotes Category C with regards to BS 7273-4

[AnthonyB]

Perhaps with the large number of care premises currently being required to fit swing frees that they never had or removed Fireco may with to develop a FreeDor X which if it receives a signal from a System X hard-wired transmitter should be Cat A.

The current FreeDor is like the original DorGard and only activates on acoustic activation from a nearby sounder & internal battery failure so wouldn't be class A.

(Info based on FireCo literature)

[kurnal]

Would such a system "X" be electronically interfaced to the alarm system or does it still rely on accoustic coupling between  a fire alarm sounder and the system "X" transmitter? I am only asking because I am not familiar with the product.

[kurnal]

Hi Colonel. Sounds to me like the situation needs a risk assessed and balanced solution, your separating door sounds like a good risk control measure that would balance out a weakness elsewhere.

Remember that BS 7273 part 4  was never intended to be interpreted as a prescriptive requirement but sought to give a detailed technical background to the issues involved in order to properly inform your final decision. Likewise the tables at the back were intended as examples but not prescription. It sounds like the various risks have to be balanced in this case, provided you follow the principles of prevention you will not go far wrong.

[colin todd]

He does not want to use non Cat A in the enclosure of a protected stairway Big Al.  I know what the Fireco literature says but perhaps Thomas can explain why they reckon its Cat C and not Cat B.

[kurnal]

Yes Colin but if I read his posting correctly he is proposing to put a door between the room in question and the stairway.

And it sounds like is a very small building, and there is full detection, and the staff are well trained and understand the service users as there is an excellent staffing ratio, (in most care homes it is around 20:1 at night, here it is 3:1 at night). The technical guidance in HTM88 perhaps may be relevant as a benchmark.

A fire risk assessor might legitimately consider a gap analysis between the safety and security offered by Cat C compared to Cat A device  and might feel that some of these strengths will go some way to closing the gap and balancing the risks. After all from the sound of it the carer is likely to smell the fire before the fire alarm picks it up.

Its absolutely right to look at other Health Safety and Welfare issues and to consider these when determining your general fire precautions.

[AnthonyB]

Would such a system "X" be electronically interfaced to the alarm system or does it still rely on accoustic coupling between  a fire alarm sounder and the system "X" transmitter? I am only asking because I am not familiar with the product.

The System x is wired into the fire alarm system so will respond to fire, fault, etc as per Category A and then radio communicates with Dorgard X units in it's range to release.

Freedor is currently only acoustically coupled with nearby sounders, but I think if they get the product out quick enough they may be onto a winner if they bring out a Freedor X that will respond to a System X transmitter that's integrated into the fire alarm system.

[colin todd]

Well Big Al, I hope the risk assessment also cconsiders failure modes and their possible common mode nature-if a sounder fails so people are not alerted its not too funny, but if a sounder fails and a critical door fails to close its really bad Karma, but I am sure the Field Marshall can work all this out for himself.

[Tom W]

With regards to Freedor being Cat C or Cat B. I have spoken with my MD about this, it was noted some time ago.

As you will see Fireco have identified Freedor and Dorgard as Cat C products however as Colin was so heavily involved in the production of the British Standard, I would be a fool to disagree with him and will have our marketing literature and website updated to reflect the correct category for the devices is Cat B not Cat A.

We already have a Cat A device which is hardwired into the panel and communicates with the door devices using radio technology.

I would say for your situation, Freedor would look like an ideal product, provided it is reflected in the risk assessment, tested and maintained correctly. Freedor is ONLY available to traders.

http://www.firecoltd.com/Fire/freedor/how_it_works.aspx

http://www.firecoltd.com/Fire/dorgardx.aspx

Apologies to the MODs, Im not advertising , simply responding.