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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Eli on August 23, 2011, 01:02:52 PM
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I am just trying to establish for an event later this year, the major issues of concern relating to fire safety in the UK today.
I understand that this may be slightly different depending on your job or geographical location but many will be common across the board. Your top 5 would be much appreciated.
Here are my 5 for starters, nothing too controversial I hope.
1 Competence standards amongst fire risk assessors
2 ‘Fire Futures’ and implications for the FRS
3 ‘Fire safety’ cost cutting in businesses. (High risk sleeping mainly)
4 The enforcement of fire safety legislation.
5 New build fire safety.
I think each one could be broken down in to specifics but if you can do a general, ‘this is concerning for me’ that will do.
Many thanks
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I am just trying to establish for an event later this year, the major issues of concern relating to fire safety in the UK today.
I understand that this may be slightly different depending on your job or geographical location but many will be common across the board. Your top 5 would be much appreciated.
Here are my 5 for starters, nothing too controversial I hope.
1 Competence standards amongst fire risk assessors
2 ‘Fire Futures’ and implications for the FRS
3 ‘Fire safety’ cost cutting in businesses. (High risk sleeping mainly)
4 The enforcement of fire safety legislation.
5 New build fire safety.
I think each one could be broken down in to specifics but if you can do a general, ‘this is concerning for me’ that will do.
Many thanks
Just one point Eli. I think the RP may be somewhat responsible when it comes to the level of competency. RPs in general are only looking to tick a box and doing so as cheaply as possible.
Competency? The words monkeys and peanuts come mind.
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Well here are the top 5 things that are keeping me awake at the moment .... ???
1. The closure of the UK Forensic Science Service
2. Technical competence of Fire Investigators and their propensity to partnership working (or not)
3. Fire Futures and the associated cuts of FRS’s (and especially Controls)
4. Fire engineering principles (standards) and their relevance to reality; especially with new construction technology
5. Competence of Fire Safety professionals; both public and private sector (with closer symbiotic working synergy )
Hope this helps
Sam
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My 5 would be:
1. the competence of fire safety professionals
2. the knowledge of an RP
3. the education of fire safety professionals
4. risk assessment versus prescriptive standards
5. how to stop the continual technical detail being written into standards that should really be quite simple.
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Nearly I think that’s included in my number 3
Sam and jokar thanks we have a couple in common which is reassuring and some very different which is healthy
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Nearly I think that’s included in my number 3
Sam and jokar thanks we have a couple in common which is reassuring and some very different which is healthy
I was thinking more about attitude of business to the FRA process Eli. Just get the assessment done as cheaply as possible regardless of what it contains. Most businesses don't give a toot about fire safety. They are more concerned about ticking a box.
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Most businesses don't give a toot about fire safety. They are more concerned about ticking a box.
It’s all about human behaviour and experiential learning again.
Most people have little or no experience of an emergency situation. Most people therefore are in the “it will never happen to me" camp or the "emergencys only happen to silly people" camp and the hoops they have to jump through in order to prevent something they feel will never happen become a bind and a waste of time and money.
What they fail to see is the reason most people have little or no experience of emergency situations is because of the safety infrastructure.
Ergo; if the smoke alarm goes off in most people’s home in the morning with a smell of burning toast, they see it as a nuisance. Not the detection of an incipient fire. Because they don’t think a toaster or a grill pan can catch fire, because they have no experience of it. Most Firefighters on the other hand do.
If a fire alarm goes off at work most people assume it is a false alarm. Even if there is supporting evidence.
:'(
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Most businesses don't give a toot about fire safety. They are more concerned about ticking a box.
If a fire alarm goes off at work most people assume it is a false alarm.
Because it most likely will be.
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Most businesses don't give a toot about fire safety. They are more concerned about ticking a box.
If a fire alarm goes off at work most people assume it is a false alarm.
Because it most likely will be.
True
So .....................is that down to poor engineering, poor risk assessments, poor management, poor system selection, or what?
sorry ..............going off topic a bit Eli but it is the $64000000 question.
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I think the more you engineer the less chance of a response as it is not understood. Human behaviour would dictate that the simplest solution is probably best unless stewarding assists.
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Why the long face. Things are better in the UK than most countries.
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Brian, you have clearly never had to deal with the DVLA.
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I can agree with this one - to an extent...
... if the smoke alarm goes off in most people’s home in the morning with a smell of burning toast, they see it as a nuisance. Not the detection of an incipient fire. Because they don’t think a toaster or a grill pan can catch fire, because they have no experience of it. Most Firefighters on the other hand do.
Once, when cooking bacon in my brother's house, the smoke alarm at the top of the stairs went off (surprise surprise) so I went to waft it (as you do). When I came back to the cooker the grill was on fire. I have always attributed the cause of the fire to the presence of the smoke alarm. And, sadly, I was a firefighter at the time. I still ate some of the bacon.
I don't know if I can come up with five concerns but here's a couple.
1. Deregulation of fire safety in respect of night clubs. Fire safety in such premises is of paramount importance yet some fire risk assessors do not seem to be able to adequately assess safe capacities.
2. The bungled together nature of BS9999.
3. The fact that under 9999 a club with two 800mm exits will safely accommodate 195 people yet under ADB it will only accommodate 100. (It's the 195 I'm worried about, not the 100.)
4. The large number of errors found in BS7974 and all its PDs.
5. The disgraceful arrogance of many fire engineers which is compounded by their incompetence. The two characteristics seem to be positively correlated.
6. The inadequacy and outdatedness (have I just made up a new word?) of ADB.
Oh, that's six, and I was just getting going. I'll leave it there. 1 and 3 are pretty much the same anyway.
Stu
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Ok Ill chip in.
1. Non uniformed inspecting officers. There is probably a lot of good however there is also some very poor ones who cling on to the guides as if they are willy wonkers golden ticket.
2. Fire & Rescue services trading *ahem Essex *ahem
3. No Government backing for mandatory qualifications and qualities of risk assessors. I will just say that I am only thinking about medium and high risk buildings.
4. Local Authorities and Housing Associations seemingly awarded FRA contracts based on cost rather than quality.
5. Fire Futures and the associated cuts of FRS’s
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The smoke alarms in my kitchen never go off. I eat out all the time.
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1. Non uniformed inspecting officers. There is probably a lot of good however there is also some very poor ones who cling on to the guides as if they are willy wonkers golden ticket.
Hmm think thats rather a sweeping statement Piglet. Both uniformed and non uniformed inspectors can be guilty of that. And remember just because someone has ridden a big red fire engine and put out loads of fires, doesn't make them a good fire safety inspector necessarily!
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1. Non uniformed inspecting officers. There is probably a lot of good however there is also some very poor ones who cling on to the guides as if they are willy wonkers golden ticket.
And do you think that this is unique to civilian FRS staff?
I have been working for a FRS which implemented civilian inspectors quite a long time ago, and in my totally biased (of course!) opinion it has worked out well. None of the civilian staff are doing it just to get the 'fire safety' tick in the box for promotion, none of them are only here for 3, 4 or 5 years seeing the days out until retirement, none of them are here begrudgingly because they are too unfit to run up and down ladders, and they all bring different skills and qualities with them.
Looking at the other end... It is generally a certain demographic who want to join the FRS to be a firefighter, and all the tests that people take to become a firefighter are not aimed at anything remotely linked to future competence in enforcement. So should we always limit the pool of potential inspectors to people who have performed well on the chester step test and people who are happy to dangle off a ladder?
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Well put Civvy
And just to add most "non uniformed" inspectors have worked out in the big wide world, rather than just the fire service and bring with them wider awareness and experience of the business / private sector.
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Well put Civvy
And just to add most "non uniformed" inspectors have worked out in the big wide world, rather than just the fire service and bring with them wider awareness and experience of the business / private sector.
All of which I agree with Civvy and Midland.
But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc. ;)
I work with both uniformed and non-uniformed FS IO’s. I have the deepest respect for both and I think they both have their pros and cons. If they work well together synergistically they produce an excellent symbiosis in the application of fire safety. However for this to happen there has to be mutual respect.
Same is true in the FI field actually. :D
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Why would you be on your belly at flashover???? :o
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Why would you be on your belly at flashover???? :o
better than being on your tippy toes...
....but not as good as being off duty and in the pub.
The smoke alarms in my kitchen never go off. I eat out all the time.
If you eat out all the time why do you have a kitchen?
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But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc. ;)
And how exactly does this make anyone a better inspecting officer?
Anyway, I watched backdraft, it's essentially the same thing but not as hot.
I still wonder why they haven't civilianised fire investigation yet........ :-X
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And how exactly does this make anyone a better inspecting officer?
Anyway, I watched backdraft, it's essentially the same thing but not as hot.
I still wonder why they haven't civilianised fire investigation yet........ :-X
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I think staring at red monsters is mandatory, that and keeping Donald Sutherland locked behind bars
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From Civvy
I still wonder why they haven't civilianised fire investigation yet........
They have. ;)
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hmm may be they shouldnt have. particularly where said investigator has a strange grasp of smoke stratification :P
Problem with the interweb is that anyone can claim to be xy or z
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Problem with the interweb is that anyone can claim to be xy or z
True ... Oh so true. :D
As I have said before on this forum there is a big difference between learning, understanding and knowledge . :-*
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The need for IO's to have operation experience was discounted many years ago and does it matter as fire safety departments will in the very near future be totally manned by civilians or retired FRS personnel. Eventually it will be civilians only and the criticism will continue if they keep opposing FR assessors.
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My comment was a sweeping statement and perhaps should of had more explanation. I worry at the level of experience they have when going off into the big red world.
I don't disagree with the idea of it but why did civvys get into it? Out of interest, was it because they are cheaper than there more experienced counter parts or was there a shortfall?
As a couple of you have pointed out being a FF does not mean you are fully qualified to be a FSO but it does at least mean you understand fire in buildings and you know where problems can be. Does it not?
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Out of interest, was it because they are cheaper than there more experienced counter parts or ...............?
Exactly. This was the only reason.
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I don't think that simply being a firefighter gives you much of an advantage at all. Yes, firefighters will know about fire behaviour, neutral layers, flashover, backdraft etc, but as inspectors our intervention and influence is well before that. By the time things like flashover are likely the 'relevant people' are stood outside the building watching the firefighters go about their jobs.
Buildings have been designed by non-fire-service-staff for years. Remember it is Building Control who ensure that Part B is met, and Building Control does not consist of firefighters. (Granted, many BC bodies rely too heavily on FRS input for part B matters, but some are quite capable)
In the days of the FP Act when firefighters were tasked with fire certificate inspections, then this will have been a good grounding in fire safety that would have been to their advantage in any shift over to fire safety. But give this same task to any civilian and it will be just as useful for the civilian.
I believe that the main problem to be addressed with civilian staff doing FP is the potential for ops to lose their fire safety knowledge. I am sure many of the ex SC's ADO's here will have used their own fire safety knowledge to their advantage when taking control of an incident at some point.
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Out of interest, was it because they are cheaper than there more experienced counter parts or ...............?
Exactly. This was the only reason.
When I was a civvy FSO, I think I was on about 8K less than my uniformed counterparts who had the same role (and it was one of the better paid posts, some of the ads I saw nationally were for 4k less than I was, so I presume they were targeting retirees), plus I didn't have the 9 day fortnight, had to work longer per day and was on the non-uniformed pension. Whether its also relevant, but I was not part of the FBU.
The problem with employing a non-uniformed types as I found out is that there were no promotion/job development routes so once you were at the top of the payscale that was it, so I left after 3 years.
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Remember it is Building Control who ensure that Part B is met, and Building Control does not consist of firefighters.
Don't we know only too well at times.
I am having a big issue with a BC certified building at the minute. Is it only ex firefighters who look above suspended ceilings? Tell me it isn't.
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Out of interest, was it because they are cheaper than there more experienced counter parts or ...............?
More experienced counter parts? Where is this 'experience' from? Surely it is from training directly related to fire safety, which anyone could be trained in?
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
So they have a better background.
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But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc. ;)
And neither have most firefighters (except during Flashover training)
The fact is the dynamic of the UK Fire Service is changing. We just dont have that many big fires anymore, and the skill base operationally is being lost. Apart from some of the older hands you could ask 20 fresh faced firefighters who have done 5 years if they have ever experienced flashover conditions. I guarantee most of them won't have done. You just don't get as many fires now, and when you do unless its persons reported you fight the fire defensively.
Fire safety is nothing to do with staring at the big red monster, and actually (which I can vouch for being operational) doesn't really teach a great deal about fire behaviour either, not to the extent that you could class yourself as being any kind of expert in it.
The fact is with "non operational" inspectors (note that some some "civvy" FSOs are uniformed by the way) we should have more stability, more continuity in fire safety depts rather than firefighters coming in from ops doing a two year stint for the sake of promotion, or whatever, then moving on.
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
So they have a better background.
That is a silly comparison to make.
A better one would be to compare the knowledge of a University Fire Officer or Hospital Fire Officer (many of whom have never worked for the fire brigade) against the firefighter. The Uni / Hosp Fire Officer would always win.
I will say this until I'm blue in the face...fire safety and firefighting are two very different things, they may be related, but the fact you have been a firefighter does not make you a competent fire safety inspector.
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But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc. ;)
The fact is with "non operational" inspectors (note that some some "civvy" FSOs are uniformed by the way) we should have more stability, more continuity in fire safety depts rather than firefighters coming in from ops doing a two year stint for the sake of promotion, or whatever, then moving on.
That was a very significent issue but on the up side the tubes also moved on in a couple of years.
The lack of staff continuity was very frustrating for outside bodies (architects and designers) who had to consult the FBs with new proposals and was the subject of many complaints. By the time a project was completed a multitude of different IO's fingerprints were all over it.
The arguement for having a "roll in roll out" policy was that it was gave operational officers a better understanding of how buildings were designed particularily the fire safety measures incorporated in the design and how they could be used to operational advantage.
I suppose it is a valid arguement to provide this type of training but not as part of a FS dept.
This arguement could go on for ever and I can tell you I have seen many crap assessments from both "competent" and "qualified" persons, one in particular from someone who would have you think he can do no wrong and everyone else can do no right. But that is logged away for use another day, if necessary.
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
Here is a list of questions then:
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding fire alarms?
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding emergency lighting?
Can you give me the details of what is covered in induction and refresher fire safety training?
Can you explain normal procedures of what to do if there is a fire?
Do you know who is responsible for fire safety in any building?
Can you explain the normal risk assessment process?
Now go ask these questions to any store manager, then go ask them to a firefighter. I bet you would get better answers from the average store manager.
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But neither have they laid on their belly staring the big red monster in the face as it rolls over the ceiling above them etc etc etc.
And neither have most firefighters (except during Flashover training)
My bold and underline
Where is your evidence to support this statement Midland? :-\
I believe this is a common urban myth currently being spread by people with an interest in cuts. Or lantern swinging by those with rose tinted spectacles (it is not what it was in my day etc etc). Yes the IRS stats will tell you there have been fewer incidents nationally. However, these have to be balanced against reduced levels of fire cover. I attend many serious fires and they almost all have been successfully fought by firefighters; many offensively (as opposed to defensively and not as in trolling or flaming as in a blog). ;D So someone somewhere must be getting experience of fire fighting. ;)
Now whether that experience is an essential prerequisite for being an FSO is another argument.
And I actually don’t think it is...... and so in some (large) way I agree with you and Civvy. 8)
However, I feel that to remove the fire service experiential learning from the symbiotic mix and to rely totally on academic learning is to degrade the end product. I personally believe those who argue for the removal of Fire Service experience from the field are either arguing from a fiscal perspective ( as non-uniformed are cheaper than uniformed staff) or they are perspective biased towards academia.
I have seen very many situations where a fire or ventilation engineer will tell you that a fire (or smoke) will not do something... then it goes and does it anyway.
And engineering is reliant on the quality of installation, future installation and maintenance; not just the design.
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I will agree that lesser resources will mean that those who will remain should almost by default get more experience as they will, in theory, be called to more and more incidents.
But Sam you know yourself how many situations during your career you have have faced flashover conditions. Ive just asked three of my colleagues all been in the job over ten years, all part of a metropolitan brigade, how many times theyve experienced flashover conditions, they can count such occassions on one hand.
Compare that to some of the newer hands in your brigade, many of whom probably haven't been to a good working job yet, let alone experience flashover conditions in real life despite being in the job a few years. It is not a case of "didn't happen in my day". But anyway this is a discussion for the operational thread... we digress. ;)
I just get tired of so called firefighters who wax lyrical with silly statements like "Unless you have rescued tens of people from a towering inferno, had three fire balls raging at you, dealt with two backdrafts, and lived through five flashovers you know nothing about fire" (ok Im exagerating but you know the type of people I mean ;))
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
So they have a better background.
That is a silly comparison to make.
A better one would be to compare the knowledge of a University Fire Officer or Hospital Fire Officer (many of whom have never worked for the fire brigade) against the firefighter. The Uni / Hosp Fire Officer would always win.
I will say this until I'm blue in the face...fire safety and firefighting are two very different things, they may be related, but the fact you have been a firefighter does not make you a competent fire safety inspector.
Now that is a silly comparison not mine! You want me to compare someone who is already doing a job in fire safety to a fire fighter?! Of course the FO would win. I would hope they as they are employed in that role that they have relevant qualifications and experience. My comparison was not at all silly, in fact I picked an accountant who on average all accountants you would think would have a higher IQ than say a road sweeper. But a civvy is a civvy.
If you are in F1 and want to employ a new driver would you expect the person who has never driven and never even been in a car to be better than someone with a license and driven for years?!
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
Here is a list of questions then:
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding fire alarms?
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding emergency lighting?
Can you give me the details of what is covered in induction and refresher fire safety training?
Can you explain normal procedures of what to do if there is a fire?
Do you know who is responsible for fire safety in any building?
Can you explain the normal risk assessment process?
Now go ask these questions to any store manager, then go ask them to a firefighter. I bet you would get better answers from the average store manager.
Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?
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I will agree that lesser resources will mean that those who will remain should almost by default get more experience as they will, in theory, be called to more and more incidents.
But Sam you know yourself how many situations during your career you have have faced flashover conditions. Ive just asked three of my colleagues all been in the job over ten years, all part of a metropolitan brigade, how many times theyve experienced flashover conditions, they can count such occassions on one hand.
Compare that to some of the newer hands in your brigade, many of whom probably haven't been to a good working job yet, let alone experience flashover conditions in real life despite being in the job a few years. It is not a case of "didn't happen in my day". But anyway this is a discussion for the operational thread... we digress. ;)
I just get tired of so called firefighters who wax lyrical with silly statements like "Unless you have rescued tens of people from a towering inferno, had three fire balls raging at you, dealt with two backdrafts, and lived through five flashovers you know nothing about fire" (ok Im exagerating but you know the type of people I mean ;))
What about getting your toes crushed by the wheeled escape?
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
Here is a list of questions then:
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding fire alarms?
Can you explain the british standard routine test regarding emergency lighting?
Can you give me the details of what is covered in induction and refresher fire safety training?
Can you explain normal procedures of what to do if there is a fire?
Do you know who is responsible for fire safety in any building?
Can you explain the normal risk assessment process?
Now go ask these questions to any store manager, then go ask them to a firefighter. I bet you would get better answers from the average store manager.
Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?
Guys, guys. There's a lot of love escaping out the window here.
Piglet, I'm going to insert a flower in the end of your branch.
Civvy, I'm going to insert a flower in the end of your, er your ??? ??? ??? ??? What do you have that I can insert a flower into the end of?
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What we need is a Friday joke today.
Irish golfer
A golfer playing in Ireland hooked his drive into the woods. Looking for his ball,
he found a little leprechaun flat on his back, a big bump on his head and the golfer's ball beside him.
Horrified, the golfer got his water bottle from the cart and poured it over the little guy, reviving him.
'Arrgh! What happened?' the leprechaun asked.
'I'm afraid I hit you with my golf ball,' the golfer says.
'Oh, I see. Well, ye got me fair and square. Ye get three wishes, so whaddya want?'
'Thank God, you're all right!' the golfer answers in relief. 'I don't want anything, I'm just glad you're OK, and I apologize.'
And the golfer walks off.
'What a nice guy,' the leprechaun says to himself.
'I have to do something for him. I'll give him the three things I would want... a great golf game, all the money he ever needs, and a fantastic sex life.'
A year goes by and the golfer is back.
On the same hole, he again hits a bad drive into the woods and the leprechaun is there waiting for him.
'Twas me that made ye hit the ball here,' the little guy says. 'I just want to ask ye, how's yer golf game?'
'My game is fantastic!' the golfer answers. 'I'm an internationally famous golfer now.'
He adds, 'By the way, it's good to see you're all right.'
'Oh, I'm fine now, thank ye. I did that fer yer golf game, you know. And tell me, how's yer money situation?'
'Why, it's just wonderful!' the golfer states. 'When I need cash, I just reach in my pocket and pull out $100 bills I didn't even know were there!'
'I did that fer ye also. And tell me, how's yer sex life?'
The golfer blushes, turns his head away in embarrassment, and says shyly, 'It's OK.'
C'mon, c'mon now,' urged the leprechaun, 'I'm wanting to know if I did a good job. How many times a week?'
Blushing even more, the golfer looks around then whispers, 'Once, sometimes twice a week.'
'What??' responds the leprechaun in shock. 'That's all? Only once or twice a week?'
'Well,' says the golfer, 'I figure that's not bad for a Catholic priest in a small parish.'
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Guys, guys. There's a lot of love escaping out the window here.
Piglet, I'm going to insert a flower in the end of your branch.
Civvy, I'm going to insert a flower in the end of your, er your ??? ??? ??? ??? What do you have that I can insert a flower into the end of?
You're going to buy me flowers? Nice
Apologies if my tone sounded angry, it wasn't supposed to. I was just debating. Its actually quite an interesting one (for me)
Im probably guilty of writing too broad of a statement. I stand by my (less broad) statement though.
Civvy - I wasn't asking your previous job to in some way open you up to ridicule. I was just interested.
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Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?
Drawing office / CAD / Engineering / IT
I am guessing a valid comment would be what would any of that have to do with fire safety, and why would a firefighter not be better at fire safety than me at that point.
My answer would be that neither me OR a firefighter would be capable of effectively enforcing fire legislation at that point, we would both require training in order to not be a liability to the public and the authority.
Using the F1 analogy, you wouldn't let either person on the track in your multi-million pound car until they had lots of training.
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Too right mate. Would you let Lewis Hamilton drive your F1?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14701797.stm
Bet you he's not even qualified to drive it.
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Apologies if my tone sounded angry, it wasn't supposed to. I was just debating. Its actually quite an interesting one (for me)
Not at all Piglet, we are all chums here, and its good to debate ;D ;D
Now then about this job with your F1 Racing team...is the money good?
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Too right mate. Would you let Lewis Hamilton drive your F1?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14701797.stm
Bet you he's not even qualified to drive it.
Maybe he should have spent a bit longer with BSM getting some experience.
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Too right mate. Would you let Lewis Hamilton drive your F1?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/14701797.stm
Bet you he's not even qualified to drive it.
Maybe he should have spent a bit longer with BSM getting some experience.
Maybe he should have read a few more of the guides. ;D
Lesson Two. To turn the car to the left you rotate the wheel in front of you anti clockwise.
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Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?
Drawing office / CAD / Engineering / IT
I am guessing a valid comment would be what would any of that have to do with fire safety, and why would a firefighter not be better at fire safety than me at that point.
My answer would be that neither me OR a firefighter would be capable of effectively enforcing fire legislation at that point, we would both require training in order to not be a liability to the public and the authority.
Using the F1 analogy, you wouldn't let either person on the track in your multi-million pound car until they had lots of training.
Interesting, thanks for not taking offence and sharing. My point is prior to training that a FF would be a better candidate for the job than the majority of other people. Of course training is essential.
Oh and the F1 job is already snapped up apparantly Kurnal fancies the lifestyle so has got himself sponsorship from CT
Watch out Jenson when Kurnals got the wind going through his hair ;)
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Im guessing at your username is civvy you are a civvyfso, can I ask what you did for a living before your current role?
Drawing office / CAD / Engineering / IT
I am guessing a valid comment would be what would any of that have to do with fire safety, and why would a firefighter not be better at fire safety than me at that point.
My answer would be that neither me OR a firefighter would be capable of effectively enforcing fire legislation at that point, we would both require training in order to not be a liability to the public and the authority.
Using the F1 analogy, you wouldn't let either person on the track in your multi-million pound car until they had lots of training.
Interesting, thanks for not taking offence and sharing. My point is prior to training that a FF would be a better candidate for the job than the majority of other people. Of course training is essential.
Oh and the F1 job is already snapped up apparantly Kurnal fancies the lifestyle so has got himself sponsorship from CT
Watch out Jenson when Kurnals got the wind going through his hair ;)
Rectum hair I presume?
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Interestingly Mr Hamilton seems to be open to critique, self-analysis and to be able to admit when he is wrong, this being the first step to true understanding. :D
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Interesting, thanks for not taking offence and sharing. My point is prior to training that a FF would be a better candidate for the job than the majority of other people. Of course training is essential.
By the same logic, if Raul Moat was still alive, would he make a better soldier than me or you? He fired a gun, so he clearly has a head start therefore is a better candidate, yes?
There are many other qualities that go towards any role, the best candidate will usually have a broad range of qualities. For an inspector you need to be able to interpret technical data, and also put it in clear english when explaining it to a punter, you need to be able to keep potentially hostile situations under control, you need to be authorititive when required, you need to be able to apply common-sense, you need to be able to create clear written records of occurrences/actions. You can prove all of these qualities with no mention of fire at all, and if someone could prove to me that they can do all these things, then I think the potential there would far outweigh a little general fire safety knowledge.
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Don't take this as me having a go at operational staff in fire safety roles. Some of our best inspectors are ex-operational guys, but I don't think that they are good because they are ex-ops, they are good because their personal qualities lend towards being a good inspector and would be good at the job regardless of any operational background.
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Don't take this as me having a go at operational staff in fire safety roles. Some of our best inspectors are ex-operational guys, but I don't think that they are good because they are ex-ops, they are good because their personal qualities lend towards being a good inspector and would be good at the job regardless of any operational background.
Thats a really magnificent point Civvy. We can all learn from that.
As I keep saying, sometimes, there are good and poor fire safety consultants and unfortunately, because of the "I was once a firefighter" tag, we are seeing more of the latter.
Yellcom in NI is full of Fire Safety Consultants I have never heard of and I wonder have they become instant experts because they have attended a 2 1/2 day Fire Risk Assessors course. It is also full of Fire Safety Consultants I know and some are good, some not so good and some I wouln't trust to do a FRA for a melting igloo.
But until the F&R start to prosecute these cowboys they will flourish.
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Civvy, I'm sure you would have to agree that if you tested one FF on general fire safety and an accountant for example the FF would almost always win.
So they have a better background.
That is a silly comparison to make.
A better one would be to compare the knowledge of a University Fire Officer or Hospital Fire Officer (many of whom have never worked for the fire brigade) against the firefighter. The Uni / Hosp Fire Officer would always win.
I will say this until I'm blue in the face...fire safety and firefighting are two very different things, they may be related, but the fact you have been a firefighter does not make you a competent fire safety inspector.
MF, I have do disagree on this one. A residential care/ nursing home I visited had been risk assessed by a Hospital fire officer ( who works for a large hospital board) He hadn't bothered to inspect the roof space area. Too hung up on the fact there were no instructions on the washing machine, as requested in HTM84!
If he had he would have seen the perforations in the fire compartment walls caused by workmen and the fact that AFD had not been extended to all compartments as required
Hope he is the exception
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Don't take this as me having a go at operational staff in fire safety roles. Some of our best inspectors are ex-operational guys, but I don't think that they are good because they are ex-ops, they are good because their personal qualities lend towards being a good inspector and would be good at the job regardless of any operational background.
Agreed Civvy but those qualities you refer to are the same qualities make a firefighter a good firefighter but it doesn't preclude others that are not firefighters. As I have said before does it matter, in the near future FS will be manned only by civvies and most probably separated from the operation role but hopefully under the auspices of the FRS.
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MF, I have do disagree on this one. A residential care/ nursing home I visited had been risk assessed by a Hospital fire officer ( who works for a large hospital board) He hadn't bothered to inspect the roof space area. Too hung up on the fact there were no instructions on the washing machine, as requested in HTM84!
If he had he would have seen the perforations in the fire compartment walls caused by workmen and the fact that AFD had not been extended to all compartments as required
Hope he is the exception
Understoood Davyfire, and there will always be exceptions to the rule. I was merely poitning out to Piglet that if you tested a Firefighter alongside an accountant about fire safety the firefighter would be more knowledgeable.
A fairer comparison would be to take a non operational expert on fire vs a firefighter (As the thrust of the argument was based on the competency of fire professionals who hadn't been operationalfirefighters)
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I was merely poitning out to Piglet that if you tested a Firefighter alongside an accountant about fire safety the firefighter would be more knowledgeable.
A fairer comparison would be to take a non operational expert on fire vs a firefighter (As the thrust of the argument was based on the competency of fire professionals who hadn't been operationalfirefighters)
You have misunderstood me then. I was the one saying if you tested a FF and an accountant the FF would be more knowledgable. And I wasn't talking about fire professionals as a whole. Of course an expert on fire would be better than a fire fighter?! I never denied that.
My point orginally was saying that from my experience the best FSOs I have come accross have come from ops. I then went on to say that the best candidate in my eyes for a FSO position would be someone who has been in ops. Which Civvy then went onto argue the point saying in fact a store manager would be a better candidate.
Then I said Kurnal and Colin were starting an F1 team.
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What about getting your toes crushed by the wheeled escape?
Absolutely vital
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Then I said Kurnal and Colin were starting an F1 team.
And I hope you would agree that I would more likely be the No 1 driver because I can double declutch a Dennis F15 and have had more practice at driving on blue lights and in any case would look far better in the press photos.
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I attend nearly all CPD days that I can. I am starting to feel that the industry needs to do more however.
All providers are doing a great job at the moment and the major topics are all covered by the FRACS /FIA / IFSM/ IFE days offered. But there is a temptation to try to cram too many topics into a single day and as a result we only get a superficial skim of the surface of any topic. Yes it keeps us up to date and reminds us of our need for self study, on the other hand I think now we have all covered the basics and some duplication is taking place. For example 40% of the Fracs day was covered on the last FIA day.
I propose that we should pick a topic and spend at least half or a full day on that topic. FIA are doing this with Water mist systems in October and PEEPS in November (Mist is free of charge grab it while you can) and I think this is the way forward.
I do leave current CPD days with my eyes widened and the feeling I have learned only that there is even more I dont know.
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Kurnal, if you want a discount just ask for one! As it’s you I'll knock the vat off; if the 40% is exactly the same and you gain nothing from the presentations you think you may have seen before.
All I can say is that the FRACS day is one of many CPD days and not many people will be at all events as many assessors will not quite have the thirst you have for professional development. We have moved the event this year to reach out to the assessors in the South East who didn't attend last years event, plus we do ask that the presenters don't cover the basics but pitch at the higher end of their subject knowledge. We can't batter them too hard for content as they are all speaking for free, but we do offer guidance notes encouraging them to stretch the audience. The reason being; that the FRACS assessors are very competent and things need to be pitched at a high level with a very specific risk assessment focus to give them added value.
Who is to say that on your full day seminar on one topic, that you won’t know 60% plus of the subject anyway! I know you want to know what the experts know but I do think that bespoke training like that is difficult to put on and thus is costly and difficult to fill.
I hope that David Ware will be able to offer you something that you need and want at the level you desire.
I look forward to seeing you on the day and we do listen to constructive feedback. We have changed a few things for this event based on last year’s feedback.
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So what do you do for Warrington Eli?
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So what do you do for Warrington Eli?
I am just in the maintenance department!
But I do like to keep up to date with fire safety issues which affect my work colleagues, I am hoping to work my way up to ‘commercial director’ one day soon.
What’s your position at Fireco?