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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: nearlythere on January 11, 2013, 10:33:52 AM
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Scenario
Number of sets of hardwood double swing doors across corridors in nursing home.
Problem
All doors have a gap along top of around 5mm. Intumescent and ss are in place.
Question
Is there anything on the market that can be fitted to solve excessive gap?
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Some strips will close gaps up to 6mm, sealmaster for one.
http://www.ribaproductselector.com/Docs/7/06637/external/COL106637.pdf
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Thanks Piglet
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It is not uncommon for the hinges to have worn and the door to have droped a few mm. If this is the case some new hinges may do the trick. (fire rated hinges that is).
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Can get strips with deeper brushes from Envirograf.
(http://i1146.photobucket.com/albums/o529/lancsfirepro/Envirografstrips_zpsae6f06a3.jpg)
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Lancspro - I'm ashamed of you! By suggesting a longer brush all you are doing is endorsing rubbish fitting/maintenance.
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I was going to say that Linniepops, but decided against it.
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Lancspro - I'm ashamed of you! By suggesting a longer brush all you are doing is endorsing rubbish fitting/maintenance.
What is your view Lin?
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I recognise the strength in Auntie Lins view and if there were a hierarchy of measures then a properly fitted fire door set fitted and maintained by an accredited installer will always come head and shoulders above anything else.
But I would contend that there is a place for alternative solutions for difficult situations. I think there is a role for extended smoke seals especially where other constraints prevent a better solution being found especially in heritage building scenarios. The trouble with these things is its likely to be "easy fix" that the joiner reaches for when the gaps open up due to worn hinges, instead of fixing the underlying problem.
The marketing of them does not help as little or no attempt is made to educate the end user as to the pros and cons.
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Lancspro - I'm ashamed of you! By suggesting a longer brush all you are doing is endorsing rubbish fitting/maintenance.
Not come across you before Aunti LIn but that seems like the post of a troll, hmmm?
Unless the doors are newly installed it is highly unlikely that the installer will be contacted to rework or replace the doors for the gap at the top and the nursing home wouldn't take too kindly to having to replace a pair of double swing fire doors either. The opening poster asked if there was a product available that would solve the problem. Piglet suggested one manufacturer and I another, yet you whine at me. Strange behaviour that.
IMO these products with deeper brushes allow a better fit on older properties with, shall we say, "slightly pi**ed" casings". I'd much rather see a deeper brush fitting all the way round than a normal sized one with a whistling gap.
I'm not getting into a debate about it this but please do not tell me what I am or I am not doing; my name and company are clearly displayed, yours are not.
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Lancs before you accuse Aunti LIn of being a troll checkout a copy of the Best Practice Guide at http://www.asdma.com/bpg.html and note the co-author.
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Thanks Tom, I wasn't sure about Auntie LIn - for the record, I didn't say she was a troll, just that the post seemed like that of a troll. I would have expected a more reasoned comment from such an expert rather than accusing me of endorsing "rubbish fitting/maintenance".
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I frequently come across doors and frames that have excessive gaps with the installation being in place for some time, don't forget wood is a natural material and can shrink/move etc. A guidance sheet by ASDMA http://www.asdma.com/pdf/maintenancelflt2.pdf does mention that a solution for excessive gaps can be larger strips. What really gets me angry is when a fire door is not installed correctly resulting in incorrect gaps and smoke seals that are of little use but the builder or developer wont listen and the poor RP is left in the middle with a door that is not performing as designed. Unfortunately good fire door chippies are few and far between usually it is a good chippy installing a door which to him is just a door and no idea of how important it is.
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I frequently come across doors and frames that have excessive gaps with the installation being in place for some time, don't forget wood is a natural material and can shrink/move etc. A guidance sheet by ASDMA http://www.asdma.com/pdf/maintenancelflt2.pdf does mention that a solution for excessive gaps can be larger strips. What really gets me angry is when a fire door is not installed correctly resulting in incorrect gaps and smoke seals that are of little use but the builder or developer wont listen and the poor RP is left in the middle with a door that is not performing as designed. Unfortunately good fire door chippies are few and far between usually it is a good chippy installing a door which to him is just a door and no idea of how important it is.
Thanks for that. A clear case of pot calling black. :D
I know what you mean about poorly installed doors though. Was at a nursing home last Thursday doing an FRA in a new wing. Storage cupboards along the main corridor had had the casing fitted the wrong way round. But rather than remove them and replace them the chippy had added a piece of timber inside the frame to create another jam then hung the door inside the casing. You can see where the slots for the intumescent strips are left on the inside of the casing. :o
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1) I assume that these doors are on floor springs, as they’re double action? In this case the maintainer should be able to remove the cover plate & adjust the height of the floor springs a few mm to raise the leaves & close the gaps. If so, job done;
2) If this doesn’t work then check whether the doors are labelled – if they are contact the manufacturer/supplier for advice;
3) Longer blades/brushes may help smoke resistance so long as they restore the seal between leaf & frame but bigger intumescent strips won’t necessarily restore fire resistance – especially on double action doorsets. If you do replace the strips with larger, you need to make sure that it’s the same type as was installed initially – the better seal manufacturers (Lorient, Sealmaster et al) should be able to advise what’s suitable if you let them know what’s there (if the strips are PVC covered you’ll need to let them know what the active material in the core looks like). If you use the wrong strips you could make the performance worse, not better.
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Following on from Firshy's post... don't mix and match graphite or sodium sillicate intumescent strips (not sure how relevant this is but just thinking in case you have combined intumescent strips / cold smoke seals fitted on your doors Nearlythere).
SS strips will activate at 100 deg C, Graphite anywhere between 170 Deg C to 300 deg C .
I'll ask a silly question Nearlythere - do you happen to know if the doors were supplied as a certrified doorset?
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Following on from Firshy's post... don't mix and match graphite or sodium sillicate intumescent strips (not sure how relevant this is but just thinking in case you have combined intumescent strips / cold smoke seals fitted on your doors Nearlythere).
SS strips will activate at 100 deg C, Graphite anywhere between 170 Deg C to 300 deg C .
I'll ask a silly question Nearlythere - do you happen to know if the doors were supplied as a certrified doorset?
Not sure MM. Apppear to be sets.
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You have to be a little careful with certified doorsets to a certain degree.
For example the following stipulations normally apply to certified doorsets:-
In an earlier post someone suggested, quite reasonably, to fit new fire rated hinges if the doors had dropped. Your client should only replace those hinges with exact 'like-for-like' replacements, if its a certified doorset.
If larger strips or the replacement hinges don't succeed in closing the gap your client may consider replacing or altering the doors. Depending on how the door set has been certified and by whom, it isn't just a question of asking Joe Bloggs the local chippy to whip them off and replace or alter them, as doing so will render the certification null and void.
Any alterations normally have to be done by an authorised manufacturer or agent, and any replacement doors will need to be exact like-for-like doors (complete with exactly the same ironmongery, hinges, strips and seals or glazing which were certified).
Furthermore you can't just replace one leaf at a time - some certifying bodies state that if you replace one you should replace both even if only one is damaged.
Not saying I agree with the above but I do understand why those stipulations exist, you can only certify something that has been tested in a certain combination. I've seen many get caught out by that, they think they have certified door sets when infact they haven't. It is down to the fire safety professional or RP to decide whether the above are important factors or not.
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Sorry to come back so late to the party but lancspro - I'm quite chuffed that you thought I might be a troll! When I was a little girl (in 1800 and frozen to death) there was a song about three billygoats gruff and the troll Voll-de-roll threatened to "eat them for supper"! Watch out - I might bite!!
Seriously - filling up the gap with smoke seal won't necessarily help the overall fire resistance as at least one of your other responders has said. It's sad, isn't it, that fire doors, which are a vital safety component in buildings, are left to the mercies of whoever isn't doing something else to fit?
It was ever thus, it seems. This may be why groups like BM-TRADA and Certifire have schemes whereby they will register installers of fire doors.
I know most of you chaps aren't in a position to require registered installers to be used, but it would be very helpful if you could beat the drum a bit and try and spread the message.
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Sorry to come back so late to the party but lancspro - I'm quite chuffed that you thought I might be a troll! When I was a little girl (in 1800 and frozen to death) there was a song about three billygoats gruff and the troll Voll-de-roll threatened to "eat them for supper"! Watch out - I might bite!!
Seriously - filling up the gap with smoke seal won't necessarily help the overall fire resistance as at least one of your other responders has said. It's sad, isn't it, that fire doors, which are a vital safety component in buildings, are left to the mercies of whoever isn't doing something else to fit?
It was ever thus, it seems. This may be why groups like BM-TRADA and Certifire have schemes whereby they will register installers of fire doors.
I know most of you chaps aren't in a position to require registered installers to be used, but it would be very helpful if you could beat the drum a bit and try and spread the message.
What would be your suggestion Lin for filling a 5mm gap?
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Whatever's done, it won't necessarily be a cheap option. I think you'd need to look at the total space in the top and bottom gaps. If the top gap is 5mm, what is it at the threshold? If it's less than that, then you do wonder whether something has happened to cause the leaves to drop within the frame. If it's more, it could just be shoddy fixing. If the total gaps are really big there might be a case for unhanging the doors, carefully lipping at the bottom with identical timber and rehanging. As I said - not necessarily a cheap option.
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I had a bit of a shock when a client called me to tell me of his experience. In my FRA I had recommend that three doors be upgraded to half hour fire doors FD30S SC. I of course recommended that he appointed an accredited contractor under one of the fire door accreditation schemes. Whilst we cant discuss prices or costs due to Competition Law I was surprised that the difference in the quotes. If installation of a standard fire door set from a builders merchant by a competent but non accredited builder was X, the quotes from accredited installers were 3X. What price accreditation? What is best value?
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Whatever's done, it won't necessarily be a cheap option. I think you'd need to look at the total space in the top and bottom gaps. If the top gap is 5mm, what is it at the threshold? If it's less than that, then you do wonder whether something has happened to cause the leaves to drop within the frame. If it's more, it could just be shoddy fixing. If the total gaps are really big there might be a case for unhanging the doors, carefully lipping at the bottom with identical timber and rehanging. As I said - not necessarily a cheap option.
Don't think the door dropped as it is double swing with floor springs.