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FIRE SAFETY => Portable Firefighting Equipment => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on November 27, 2013, 07:41:09 PM
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Can anyone tell me if Fire Extinguisher ID Signs are needed above every extinguisher?. Could you also point me in the direction of any specific legislation that says this.
I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
Indicated by signs....., could this just be a fire point sign? or could the extinguisher act as its own sign. I cant find anywhere where it states that extinguisher specific signs are needed above every extinguisher.
An enquiry I received recently any observations?
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Can anyone tell me if Fire Extinguisher ID Signs are needed above every extinguisher?. Could you also point me in the direction of any specific legislation that says this.
I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
Indicated by signs....., could this just be a fire point sign? or could the extinguisher act as its own sign. I cant find anywhere where it states that extinguisher specific signs are needed above every extinguisher.
An enquiry I received recently any observations?
Not legislation but..............
BS5308 Pt8 2012 Section 6
The position and type of a fire extinguisher should be indicated on a sign so
that, if the extinguisher is removed, this can be identified during a safety
inspection, and a replacement ordered.
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A fire point sign or extinguisher pictogram alone would, IMO, meet the regulations, but if you are going to stick signs up at all the ID signs give more information.
I must admit I wonder what was the point in making all extinguishers red if they still need signing anyway!
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The legislation requires the provision of fire fighting equipment, where necessary etc etc, and a good way of doing so would by using these fire extinguisher things that even have a British Standard named after them. If one thinks it is necessary to have a bucket of water for firefighting then you can do so but if you do you have to make it identifiable and easy to use and a good way of doing that is to have an information sign. You can have the sign on the bucket if you want just like there is on these extinguisher things but the good man who wrote BS5306 pt 8 thought it a good idea to have an additional sign pinned on the wall above it so that if some idiot decided to steal it or use it as a door stop someone might notice it was missing and the correct type of extinguisher replaced or returned. ;)
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Another aspect comes in when you decide to reposition an extinguisher, how do you know whether you have an empty bracket because the extinguisher has been relocated and no-one has taken the bracket off or someone has nicked the extinguisher?
On a couple of sites I have been on there are empty extinguisher mountings which have been left there because, if they were to be removed, it would be necessary to redecorate the wall! Either that or the job of removing the bracket is so far down the must do list that it will only be done when the area is refurbished.
If the mounting has a sign there should be a corresponding extinguisher there, no sign no extinguisher.
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Art 13(1) the first two words in art 13 (1) is "Where necessary" and art 13 (1)b states indicate by a sign.
I think the legislation RR(FS)O art 13(1) b is quite clear "Where necessary a fire extinguisher sign is required" and the British Standard recommends a FFE sign should be provided, but would not a bracket without an extinguisher hanging from it, indicate it had been removed? IMO the decision lies with the Responsible Person whether it is necessary or not.(Risk Assessment)
I know Mike has covered about the fire extinguisher being relocated but if the bracket hasn't been removed then use a sign the fire extinguisher has been relocated.
Check out https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-reform-fire-safety-order-2005-guidance-note-enforcement for clarification.
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Tam, There is no requirement for extinguisher signs. Only if the extinguisher could otherwise be hidden or overlooked.
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1) I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
You've answered your own question
2) Risk assessment........wrong extinguisher, wrong fire = ID sign.
John
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1) I am aware the the Regulatory Reform Fire Safety Order states in 13.-(1) (B) any non-automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs.
You've answered your own question
John
You are reading art 13(1) b in isolation the first two words in art 13 (1) is "Where necessary" then read (13 1b). So they are only required if necessary.
Check out https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/regulatory-reform-fire-safety-order-2005-guidance-note-enforcement for clarification.
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Ah! The old "where necessary" chestnut.
“Where necessary”
27. The European Workplace Directive (89/654/EEC), in the preliminary note (paragraph 1)
to the Annex, states that:
“the obligations laid down in this Annex apply whenever required by the features of
the workplace, the activity, the circumstances or a hazard.”
28. This is implemented in the Order by use of the term “where necessary”, and that
expression should be construed accordingly.
29. The Order requires that fire precautions (such as fire fighting equipment, fire detection
and warning, conditions relating to emergency routes and exits) should be provided
(and maintained) “where necessary”.
30. This means that the fire precautions provided (and maintained) by the responsible
person are those needed to reasonably protect relevant persons from risks to them in
case of fire. This is determined by the findings of a fire risk assessment, including the
preventative measures which have or will be taken. In practice, it is very unlikely that
a properly conducted fire risk assessment, which takes into account all the matters
relevant for the safety of persons in case of fi re, will conclude that no fire precautions
(including maintenance) are necessary.
So what does "where necessary" mean?
If a premises has a "no fire fighting" policy does that mean extinguishers are not necessary?
Or does it mean that fire fighting equipment is required and the ones necessary, due the size, risk, etc, should be provided?
Depends whether you are selling or buying.
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It means pound signs for the lawyers
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"where necessary"
Point 1 becomes necessary because of point 2.
John
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I agree with the point about them being red and also instructions on them.
The answer would come from the risk assessment.
If there is a danger of them being moved and the managerial actions cannot control this, then may the i/d is required. In this case I would rather address the managerial actions.
I have seen i/d...even tasteful ones place on tasteful boxes that may house extinguishers
One would have to look at staff training and what staff are required to do in case of fire. In most circusmstances where they are required to use them, staff may be able to locate them as they are big and red!
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A real bugbear of mine.
The man from ##### he says we have to have them.
Normally at £5 per sign and £10 to fit. They can be downloaded for 49p and fit them yourself. As a school governor the man from ##### wanted about £120. I could go on - Rant over
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If your ##### man says you have to have them, just remind him that as a school, you are free to buy your services elsewhere.
Then find somebody that will provide them free with every new extinguisher...like we do.
John
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CLG Guidance Note on Enforcement Article 13 Para 72 states "Any non-automatic fire-fi ghting equipment must be easily accessible and, where necessary, indicated by signs."
That's good enough for me!
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CLG Guidance Note on Enforcement Article 13 Para 72 states "Any non-automatic fire-fi ghting equipment must be easily accessible and, where necessary, indicated by signs."
That's good enough for me!
How do you deal with the "where necessary" bit chrpay?
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By the risk assessment
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“Where necessary”
27. The European Workplace Directive (89/654/EEC), in the preliminary note (paragraph 1)
to the Annex, states that:
“the obligations laid down in this Annex apply whenever required by the features of
the workplace, the activity, the circumstances or a hazard.”
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I agree with Colin Todd on this.....once the risk assessment points to the need for an extinguisher as a control measure....then if you can't see it it will need a sign....if you can it won't. Staff, if trained to use then will know where they are. Oh for the good old days of a BGCP with extinguishers forming a firepoint!
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....then if you can't see it it will need a sign....if you can it won't.
One of the recommendations of a sign is to identify where an extinguisher and the type should be so if it is missing it will be obvious to all and sundry.
If a sign is provided as the extinguisher can't be seen, how will the sign help? How will a sign tell you if it is missing or not?
Just a thought chrpay. ;)
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If the fire extinguisher is concealed i.e. in a cupboard or similar then it will need signage to show people where it is. You will need to open the cupboard to check that it is there.
If the fire extinguisher is on the wall then to a large extent it would be its own sign provided it is there. If there is nothing there how can you tell something is missing?
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If there is nothing there how can you tell something is missing?
The brackets or stand could be a clue.
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The brackets or stand could be a clue.
Agreed but go back in the thread how do you tell if the bracket is empty because the extinguisher has gone AWOL or because it has been moved and no-one has removed the bracket?
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The brackets or stand could be a clue.
Agreed but go back in the thread how do you tell if the bracket is empty because the extinguisher has gone AWOL or because it has been moved and no-one has removed the bracket?
Same with a sign?
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Agreed but go back in the thread how do you tell if the bracket is empty because the extinguisher has gone AWOL or because it has been moved and no-one has removed the bracket?
If you cannot get them to remove the bracket, then your risk assessment would require a sign indicating it has been relocated. My point has always been, its all about risk assessment and you only need to put signs where necessary and not because a British standard tells you to.
In most situations signs are not required but on the rare occasions they are, fit one.
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"you need an extinguisher ID sign to tell what type it is/so you select the right one/many similar reasons"
Strangely BSEN3 has strict labelling requirements so that people can readily identify what fires it is suitable for and with the exception of small powders the pictograms and colour coding on the actual extinguishers are far bigger & clearer than the ones on the ID signs.
When Signs International were still going they produced an handy little adhesive sign that went behind the extinguisher stating it was missing, had a fair bit of popularity in some sectors in the days before extinguisher ID signs became common (which was around the change to red extinguishers with BSEN3)
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...Not forgetting that the client pays for an engineer - sorry, Technician, to install the correct piece of kit to cover the presented hazards. So.....do we still need signs?
IMO Yes of course. They are there to offer advice on what to use the unit on and what not to use it on.
Then again...if the staff have had their mandatory training .. or its a visitor to a site for example, they can stop. Read all the info and make a decision based upon the id sign advice.
Simple really! ;D
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Are extinguishers provided for visitors to use?
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"They are there to offer advice on what to use the unit on and what not to use it on."
Because the extinguisher doesn't??
Arguably they add nothing that doesn't already have to exist in the extinguisher labelling.
They can help spot a missed extinguisher or one not clearly visible, but so can other means and signs.
Nice little earner though with some of the mark up on them I've seen!
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I agree with Colin Todd on this.....once the risk assessment points to the need for an extinguisher as a control measure....then if you can't see it it will need a sign....if you can it won't. Staff, if trained to use then will know where they are. Oh for the good old days of a BGCP with extinguishers forming a firepoint!
If you cannot see the extinguisher how on earth are you going to see the sign located just above?
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STATUTORY INSTRUMENTS
1996 No. 341
HEALTH AND SAFETY
The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996
Made
18th February 1996
Laid before Parliament
23rd February 1996
Coming into force
1st April 1996
The Secretary of State in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 15(1), (2), (3)(a) and (c) and (9) and 82(3)(a) of, and paragraphs 1(1), (3) and (4), 9, 12 and 14 of Schedule 3 to, the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974(1) (?the 1974 Act?) and of all other powers enabling him in that behalf and for the purpose of giving effect without modifications to proposals submitted to him by the Health and Safety Commission under section 11(2)(d) of the 1974 Act, after the carrying out by the said Commission of consultations in accordance with section 50(3) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations
PART IV
MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS FOR THE IDENTIFICATION AND LOCATION OF FIRE-FIGHTING EQUIPMENT
1. Preliminary remark
This Part applies to equipment used exclusively for fire-fighting purposes.
Fire-fighting equipment must be identified by using a specific colour for the equipment and placing a location signboard, and by using a specific colour for the places where such equipment is kept, or their access points.
The colour for identifying this equipment is red.
The red area must be sufficiently large to allow the equipment to be identified easily.
The signboards provided for in paragraph 3.5 of Part II must be used to mark the locations of this equipment
3.5. Fire-fighting signs
Intrinsic features:
Rectangular or square shape
White pictogram on a red background (the red part to take up at least 50% of the area of the sign)
Can't see any 'where necessary'. Can only see 'must'
The extra graphics & text such as type of extinguisher and what it can and can't be used on is not required.
EC Safety Signs Directive 92/58/EEC states the same too.
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The guidance to the regulations L64 gives further guidance on when signs are needed. In respect of signboards for example paragraph 103 page 25 states that where the equipment is predominantly red there may be no need to colour the background red as well. In respect of fire fighting signs paragraph 104 states that if for any reason fire fighting equipment is placed in a position hidden from direct view, indicate its location using appropriate directional arrows together with the relevant fire fighting equipment sign.
The guidance to the Regulations L64 is issued by the HSE and states if you follow the guidance you will normally be doing enough to comply with the Law ( page ii)
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If we knew we were going to end up signing everything anyway we should have kept the old BS5423 colour coding instead of making everything red with tiny symbols on..... :)
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... and why did they ever get did of CTC, eh Tony? Those were the days.
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... and why did they ever get did of CTC, eh Tony? Those were the days.
I think my mum's still got a Junior Pyrene in the kitchen. It's at least as old as I am.
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No one I have ever come across (& I mean the general public and employees most likely to use the extinguishers) has ever seen the sense in the change and all liked the full colouring.
And the symbols don't go down very well either, some people come up with some interesting interpretations of what the symbols are of!
But at least it reinforces the need for training (& flogging loads of ID signs....)
Why did they move away from CTC? It was great to get grease ink and oil stains out of clothing (as long as it wasn't that pesky pink dyed stuff!) ;D
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Why did they move away from CTC?
Unfortunately it does nasty things to kidneys, liver, central nervous system, and might cause cancer. (paraphrased from wikipedia).
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Yes it was widely used in the radio repair trade in the 30s and 40s as a switch cleaner and a number of engineers fell ill and died several weeks after exposure to large volumes of the vapour. Nasty stuff. Was it ever used as a dry cleaning agent? I seem to recall it was. I cant recall if it's peer methyl bromide had uses other than firefighting. It all makes halon 1211 look quite innocuous in comparison!
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I was actually aware of why they moved away from CTC. It was merely a flippant reference to Tony becoming the Victor Meldrew of the extinguisher world.
And another thing, what was wrong with sand buckets eh, Tony.
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And I was joining in the banter in being flippant back ,I know all the hazards of CTC (along with the fact it wasn't actually that effective!)
If we accept that we have to put signs up, then we can move onto the next common question.......
MUST you put extinguishers on brackets or stands?
(M&S never have and still don't, probably the one exception amongst big companies, but interesting non the less. They held off with extinguisher ID & call signs for longer than most as well, sticking with their long standing red disc and rectangle system)
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If we knew we were going to end up signing everything anyway we should have kept the old BS5423 colour coding instead of making everything red with tiny symbols on..... :)
Maybe if we come out of Europe we can go back to proper colour coding. ;D
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and Routemaster buses. What was wrong with them. Did anyone ever fall off the open platform.
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Eh oop, Gazza the Coal, where have you been.
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Never far away Colin. Always watching, keeping a beady eye... ;)