FireNet Community
FIRE SAFETY => Fire Risk Assessments => Topic started by: kurnal on May 22, 2014, 01:07:18 PM
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With important deadlines looming for the IFSM register and the FIA registers will the FRACS/NAFRAR and BAFE SP205 schemes take off or will these organisations see a large reduction in membership?
Will you apply?
Why do you think take up has been slow so far?
What would make you apply?
What is putting you off applying?
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Kurnal as you know I've been there with respect to 205 and had the registration for nearly a year. I found the process to be OK to be honest but found that requiring a 'one man band' to have a further assessment after six months was ridiculous and came at a very busy time for me, in addition having been on the register for about nine months I didn't receive one phone call. For me it was too expensive to maintain and I couldn't see any benefit to me in keeping up the registration. In addition I see plenty of work from BAFE registered companies that is sub-standard/shocking therefore in my opinion its not for me and the RP is merely having the wool pulled over their eyes.
The 205 scheme in my opinion is about QA for the business; its not necessarily about competence of the assessor. I have plenty of endorsements about the quality of the work and a degree certificate to confirm my competence in the field of fire engineering; my current stance with respect to TPA is that competence should mean a formal qualification and my recommendation would be the minimum of a degree qualification. I think that we should start adopting the EU definition of 'competent person' in the UK rather than the Brazier v. Skipton Rock criteria that has allowed people with neither qualifications nor experience to be deemed as 'competent' on payment of a few quid. SP205 is a check that you have a list of BS's, management procedures, a H & S policy etc. and very little with respect to fire risk and even less that you understand fire from first principles.
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I have plenty of endorsements about the quality of the work and a degree certificate to confirm my competence in the field of fire engineering; my current stance with respect to TPA is that competence should mean a formal qualification and my recommendation would be the minimum of a degree qualification.
I think you should have a a formal qualification but not necessary to degree level. We have the syllabus, "FIRE RISK ASSESSMENT COMPETENCY COUNCIL - Competency Criteria for Fire Risk Assessors" and any prospective candidate should be tested on it and if successful given an appropriate formal certificate or placed on a register to prove their competence.
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Golden,
Who did you do your SP205 through? We had to prove competency for all our staff on ours and reports are audited for content with consultants having to be audited on site (including viva voce type test to check knowledge and rationale behind decisions) i.e. a lot more than just the QA and resource elements
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Anthony as I said earlier 'for a one man band' - so yes all our consultants (me) were audited including on site but to be honest the IFE check was much much harder for technical content. It shouldn't matter who I got the 205 through as surely they are all to the same standard or TPA wouldn't be any good would it???
Tom - would you expect someone surveying your house to merely have fulfilled a set of criteria designed by a few people in the industry sat around a table? If we're serious about accrediting surely we have to be driving towards a degree level minimum standard?
(Apologies to Kurnal and a few others on here who were sat around that table - devil's advocate is in play!)
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I have not yet made a final decision. For my micro business there is no commercial requirement for TPC - none of my customers, including govt and related organisations appear to be in the least concerned whether we are certified or not. Some welcome the move towards TPC but all say that it would not stop them using our services if we do not register. On the other hand I would be very sorry to have to leave the FIA - but is that sufficient reason - other than personal pride - to go through the cost and hassle as Golden has found?
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With important deadlines looming for the IFSM register and the FIA registers will the FRACS/NAFRAR and BAFE SP205 schemes take off or will these organisations see a large reduction in membership?
Will you apply?
Why do you think take up has been slow so far?
What would make you apply?
What is putting you off applying?
Kurnal as you know we were the 4th Company to gain BAFE SP205 and we are on our 3rd surveillance visit due next month. This equates to around ?1,000 for the year and at each visit we have had a number of our assessors have on-site witness audits so they can be classed as "validators" and be able to sign off FRAs. Once validated we have applied to go on the NAFRA register, 2 are on NAFRAR at the moment.
I think uptake is slow as it hasn't been pushed in the industry and also fear of the unknown and the process. It's not complicated at all really and if you are producing quality FRAs with supporting company procedures, knowledge, CPD, polices, controlled document list etc then it should be no problem. The point being it's what a good assessor/company should be doing anyway.
The point we all seem to miss here is it's not about generating business (that's a bonus, and we have had plenty) it's not about how much "hassle" it is. It's about there being an industry competency standard out there, be it BAFE or FRACS etc and although not mandatory is something that we should be striving to gain.
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I think it has to take off. More and more as an I/O I am asked to recommend somebody to carry out a fire risk assessment, I can't and I wouldn't recommend anyone by name, but I can recommend that the RP looks on the various registers and chooses somebody off the list.
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Golden it depends on the degree of theoretical and practical knowledge required to produce a competent report. For Fire Risk assessing the depth of theoretical knowledge required, in my opinion, is far less than what is require to gain pass in a degree course. As for the practical knowledge and experience I would imagine very little forms part of a degree course but it is essential to produce a competent FRA report.
As for the "Competency Criteria for Fire Risk Assessors" I am sure it would be possible to have it amended if it doesn't meet the purpose it was design for.
NB. I am discussing Fire Risk Assessing not Fire Consultancy which would require a much higher level of theoretical knowledge.
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It should be about the independent third party reference that certification gives you. i.e. it isn't just me saying I am a good guy, I have a third party reference. The problem is that the bad assessors are credible they don't wear a T-shirt with 'I am crap at my job' written on it. They get just as much work as the good assessors possibly more.
Those who claim to be competent need to be looking at the guy who is competing against him and asking how can I differentiate myself from him? You don?t need to! However he doesn?t need to be competent either; those responsible providers need to help change the landscape and get the playing field levelled. The CBs also need to do more work promoting the value of choosing someone with certification above one that has none and the FRS need to focus on the bad assessors in their area and start to take an interest in their work if it is substandard. Having said that; it needs to be really, really poor for the FRS to show an interest.
There still need to be a bit more work done on generating the commercial advantage for being certificated I agree but that would be a lot easier if the good could get certificated and start to promote and tell potential clients about it. It is a catch 22 and no doubt what will happen is the IFSM guys will not get certificated the FIA will lose members and the world of fire risk assessment will be no worse off for that. The world of fire risk assessment would be a better place if the poor providers could be marginalised and taken out of the pool of jobbing assessor. How can that be done? The IFSM guys need to get third party certification from an accredited CB as do the FIA members and all other responsible providers too.
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It should be about the independent third party reference that certification gives you. i.e. it isn't just me saying I am a good guy, I have a third party reference. The problem is that the bad assessors are credible they don't wear a T-shirt with 'I am crap at my job' written on it. They get just as much work as the good assessors possibly
You're right some will get as much work as the good ones. An ex colleague and friend is chair of a village hall and wanted somebody to do the FRA had a range of people interested prices ranged from ?90-?450 The ?90 quote was from a retired 30 year operational firefighter. We both laughed when we saw the name. Perhaps I should buy him that T-shirt.
The frightening thing his he might do a couple of those a week and produce poor assessments. Low risk premises unlikely to be audited and only found out if something goes wrong.
I leave the fire service in 9 months and will get accredited before I join the real world. But would welcome advice which one to go for. Tempted to go down the IFE route - only because I have passed Colin's FRA course and it seem more straightforward.
Why doesn't the pound sign work?
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It should be about the independent third party reference that certification gives you. i.e. it isn't just me saying I am a good guy, I have a third party reference. The problem is that the bad assessors are credible they don't wear a T-shirt with 'I am crap at my job' written on it. They get just as much work as the good assessors possibly
You're right some will get as much work as the good ones. An ex colleague and friend is chair of a village hall and wanted somebody to do the FRA had a range of people interested prices ranged from ?90-?450 The ?90 quote was from a retired 30 year operational firefighter. We both laughed when we saw the name. Perhaps I should buy him that T-shirt.
The frightening thing his he might do a couple of those a week and produce poor assessments. Low risk premises unlikely to be audited and only found out if something goes wrong.
I leave the fire service in 9 months and will get accredited before I join the real world. But would welcome advice which one to go for. Tempted to go down the IFE route - only because I have passed Colin's FRA course and it seem more straightforward.
Why doesn't the pound sign work?
I would try the IFE one DT. The other one turned in to a farce for me.
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Ultimately you seek TPC to get more work.
I did it, we got no additional jobs through having it. In fact no one even knew or cared about it.
If you want more work, give the money you would spend on TPC to a decent marketer and SEO expert.
Drive traffic to your website and list your credentials on there.
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Ultimately you seek TPC to get more work.
I did it, we got no additional jobs through having it. In fact no one even knew or cared about it.
If you want more work, give the money you would spend on TPC to a decent marketer and SEO expert.
Drive traffic to your website and list your credentials on there.
Great advice ;D
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Big Al, in answer to your questions:
We have applied and been certificated
Nothing would put me off applying
Nothing would make me apply, I did it myself
The uptake is slow because fire safety sadly is a second rate profession compared to other professionals with whom we would like to equate ourselves and it will not get better until the profession realises that and shows more professionalism in putting it sown house in order and stopping cowboy practitioners.
If the FIA lose members because they are not prepared to seek the TPC that they signed up to getting, so be it. Its not about bums on seats. Its about ensuring that if a member of the public uses an FIA member, whether for maintenance of their fea or designing their fire alarm system, they are not just buying the services of a company that paid a cheque and got membership-they are using companies in whom there can be the confidence of TPC. The FIA should be applauded for trying to drag the industry to where it ought to be.
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The FIA position is the same as the policy adopted by the ASFP. It's taken years of work, but now more and more main contractors are looking for TPC from their fire protection contractors. That's what responsible trade associations do.
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Wee Brian - a good friend and colleague has spent a fortune on TPA for passive fire protection and QA standards such as ISO90001. He is regularly overlooked and mainly on price compared to those without the accreditation. My experience of TPA as a small company is that it is costly and has no return whatsoever on your investment - the bigger companies can absorb that cost and pass it on to their clients but personally I can't afford the time or the money. As for main contractors looking for TPC this is due to their own QA and risk management on the bigger projects where the contracts are sewn up by the companies who have all of the badges and many will find that SP205 will not be sufficient accreditation to get these jobs. We are still in a position where many RPs employ risk assessors without even checking that they have insurance!
When the FIA get to the position of the ASFP then I'll dust off my paperwork and re-apply but I'm certainly not holding my breath.
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Sure, that comes as no surprise and I understand where you are at.
My answer to the original question is - yes, probably, but it will take a while.
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The FIA should be applauded for trying to drag the industry to where it ought to be.
I fully agree with that Colin. But I am interested to know why it is not taking off and why people do not appear to agree with you.
I have shared my own reasons with you and others but my position is different than most as I am looking to down scale my business rather than grow it. And am not taking on new customers nowadays.
Its a shame that the FIA and the IFSM are lone voices. If things carry on as they are now their brave stance in setting an example is likely to result in membership of both organisations declining to 10% of their current levels. Plummeting membership levels will not help the scheme take off- they will slow it down as with only 20 odd certificated providers nationally it will fall off the radar for a number of years.
Could this be prevented by stronger promotion of the schemes via Business link, advertising, and Government / local government/ fire services helping the push?.
Personally I don't think getting cross with people will help. Is there a role for the FSF?
Did SP203 have the same slow start?
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Big Al, in answer to your questions:
We have applied and been certificated
Nothing would put me off applying
Nothing would make me apply, I did it myself
The uptake is slow because fire safety sadly is a second rate profession compared to other professionals with whom we would like to equate ourselves and it will not get better until the profession realises that and shows more professionalism in putting it sown house in order and stopping cowboy practitioners.
If the FIA lose members because they are not prepared to seek the TPC that they signed up to getting, so be it. Its not about bums on seats. Its about ensuring that if a member of the public uses an FIA member, whether for maintenance of their fea or designing their fire alarm system, they are not just buying the services of a company that paid a cheque and got membership-they are using companies in whom there can be the confidence of TPC. The FIA should be applauded for trying to drag the industry to where it ought to be.
I agree with Colin!
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No that can't surely be true?
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Wow - I feel as though we should declare a public holiday or something!
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Wow - I feel as though we should declare a public holiday or something!
What about a street party.
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Hang on, remember not too long ago, both Dave and Ed said, "I agree with Nick" ....look what happened there. Put your bunting away....
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Wee B, your political masters declare public holidays too easily, like when some of these royal geezers do something or other. Complete waste of time and lost productivity. He only agrees with me cos I bought a second hand telly from him at Warrington Domestic Appliances.
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normal service has been resumed
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I see Colin is still pushing for his 'King of Scotland' dream! Come independence and they will need a new monarch up there in the North. I dare say he will be typically two faced and declare a public holiday
King Colin Day - All the children will have to stand in lines in the playground and recite from the pages of PAS 79. Where the Scottish fire service will burn an effigy of me and when they finally put out the fire they will chant these words 'We are just hose squirting fire monkeys and King Colin is the god of all things fire' and politicians will have to crawl through mud to confirm they are worms.
Looking on the bright side at least he will be north of the border with his new telly; and when he has worn it out watching the replay of his coronation he will no doubt be back blaming me for selling him a crap TV.
Normal service has indeed resumed.
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I don't think any of them have heard of you Kel.
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Why would they have heard of me?
Do try and follow the context of the text and stop just jumping in to defend your dad. I know you love the old man but honestly it shouldn't make you blind to his frailties, nor excuse his rampant dismissing of everyone else who isn't Colin Todd.
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I see Colin is still pushing for his 'King of Scotland' dream! Come independence and they will need a new monarch up there in the North. I dare say he will be typically two faced and declare a public holiday
King Colin Day - All the children will have to stand in lines in the playground and recite from the pages of PAS 79. Where the Scottish fire service will burn an effigy of me and when they finally put out the fire they will chant these words 'We are just hose squirting fire monkeys and King Colin is the god of all things fire' and politicians will have to crawl through mud to confirm they are worms.
Looking on the bright side at least he will be north of the border with his new telly; and when he has worn it out watching the replay of his coronation he will no doubt be back blaming me for selling him a crap TV.
Normal service has indeed resumed.
What about a Dotty Day? Sounds like a day of fun and frolics.
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yeah i like the sound of dotty day. lets be sure to make that happen. i could make a killing selling dotty wigs made fom cotton wool
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Kel, On a point of accuracy, the correct name is the Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, and Piggers is right, they have never heard of you North of the Border, but the idea of them burning your effigy appeals to me, a bit like the Wicker Man made of straw and of no substance, and a cult B movie with an audience of 5.
On a further point of accuracy, I don't dismiss everyone else, just television salesmen.
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Narcissism demonstrated most clinically Colin. Well done!
On a point of accuracy
The Wicker Man is generally well-regarded by critics. Film magazine Cinefantastique described it as "The Citizen Kane of horror movies", and during 2004 the magazine Total Film named The Wicker Man the sixth greatest British film of all time. It also won the 1978 Saturn Award for Best Horror Film
I like your inference.
You as Lord Summerisle; I can see you have the same characteristics as that pagan Laird of the isle.
I always knew you were a Cult ::)
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Sadly, Kel you are not old enough to remember the release of the Wicker Man. I saw it first time round. It was a B movie with something good to watch as the main film. I thought it was rather banal and boring, but enjoyed the main film. I still see some resemblance. Also, the director of the film destroyed the original negatives saying that it was rubbish. I hope the tv shop directors never think the same of you.
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I see what you're saying here; as long as it's written by you, adapted for film by you, directed by you, staring you, produced by you, edited by you and released by you, it is just brilliant. Yawn
I think it was Winston Churchill who said 'you will never get where you are going if you stop to throw stones at every barking dog'.
But honestly it's so much fun throwing stones at you when you bark, plus it is so hard to miss that big old head of yours.
Kurnal please do feel free to block this thread as once again Colin's 'chelp' means this has nothing to do with what it started with and is now all about Colin's affliction! And if he continues to refuse to get treatment for his narcissism I dare say we will be back at this sooner or later.
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Well back on piste, BAFE SP 205 is taking off rather well I think. Must be the quality of the salesmen and the high standing of the CBs who operate the scheme. They are to be congratulated.
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Well back on piste, BAFE SP 205 is taking off rather well I think. Must be the quality of the salesmen and the high standing of the CBs who operate the scheme. They are to be congratulated.
I agree with Colin on the quote above, it is good to have certificated companies no matter what scheme they are in; it adds support to the wide spread backing of third party certification across the active and passive sectors. Third party certification isn't the complete answer but it is a starting point for the due diligence process. Lots more education and guidance is still needed perhaps those CBs who are offering SP 205 can start to drive the demand for certification from the end clients too. The only way to make this a success across the industry is by making it commercially attractive to have quality assurance certification and to have a unified push from those offering certification. Moving forward I hope to get the fire sector CBs together to form a body that the sector can work with when developing new schemes. For example there is a push to develop a fire safety management competence document. It might be that the sector feels that a competent person's scheme may be appropriate for fire safety managers. If that is the case this CB fire sector body could be approached to develop a single level of scheme that could be adopted and operated by those CBs who wish to add it to their scope.
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I agree with Kelsall when he agrees with me, cos on those occasions he is dead right.
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(http://media1.giphy.com/media/Gg8OTKzMxgsdq/giphy.gif)
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I have been BAFE SP205-1 accredited for nearly 18 months and IFE accredited for three years. Soon I am due to be reaccredited for the BAFE SP205-1 scheme, however, the following points are making me reconsider and my present opinion is that the scheme does not have a satisfactory cost to benefit return to support its financial subscriptions and managerial burden. I would however, say that by being part of it has most certainly brought my process documentation and procedures to a higher standard than from before I had it.
- I have only had one enquirer in 18 months who has requested third party certification
- The cost of the SP205-1 scheme is high and requires a full day of my time out for auditing etc.
- I am not in favour of companies that sell fire safety products also supplying fire risk assessments and the BAFE scheme actively promotes this.
- I have noticed that several BAFE accredited companies for fire alarms, fire extinguishers are carrying out fire risk assessments by unqualified and/or non third party certificated fire risk assessors. This IMO makes a mockery of the principles of third party accreditation yet BAFE do not seem to be making much of it.
- The level of qualification required to get onto the scheme is almost negligible, e.g. I know of one company that their lead risk assessor has undertaken a one week FRA course and has several years in the fire industry experience only. What fire industry experience means is unknown, but I believe it is the installation of fire extinguishers and fire alarms only and hardly constitutes the necessary knowledge requirements of building design etc.
I strongly believe in the third party accreditation process but some organisations are doing it better than others.
P.S. Until the enforcers start enforcing (i.e. prosecuting FRA's when appropriate), third party accreditation will remain a nice to have and nothing more!!
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Mevans since you raise it, which is the best scheme in your view? There are three ukas accredited company schemes as far as I am aware -Warrington, sp205 and IFC
There are two ukas accredited competent person schemes as far as I am aware -FRACS/IFSM NFRAR, and ROSP. Then there are the risk assessor registers operated by IFE, IFPO and the old IFSM register that is shortly to die. Finally the IOSH list. Have I missed anyone? I agree with you that using an sp205 company does not guarantee that the fire risk assessment will be technically competent. I have seen three examples this year that I would not put my name to and one with several very significant omissions and errors.
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Kurnal
without an in depth analysis and having only been party to two schemes I think both have merit and of the two the BAFE scheme is more encompassing of all business requirements but as I have said I predominantly do not like the values being upheld by many BAFE fire alarm, extinguisher companies.
I think that in due course I will gravitate to see what the Warrington scheme offers, but I am more interested in that from a competency point of view than any other matter.
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BAFE ROOLS OK
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BAFE ROOLS OK
I blaim the edumakation sistum.
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NT based on the evidence before us, I take it that you refer to the inadeqacy of the Scottish education system.
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NT based on the evidence before us, I take it that you refer to the inadeqacy of the Scottish education system.
On the evidence before us that would be in the affirmative K. But not all of Scotland. Just the schools my wife did not attend.
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Ultimately you seek TPC to get more work.
I did it, we got no additional jobs through having it. In fact no one even knew or cared about it.
If you want more work, give the money you would spend on TPC to a decent marketer and SEO expert.
Drive traffic to your website and list your credentials on there.
You are about right there Piglet, although I got TPC for other reasons, certainly not for acquiring work, I have a good client base. One reason was to distance myself from the cowboys and the other was to give myself something additional to stand up to those jackbooted, inexperienced ex dustbinmen now operating as I/O's on the cheap by Fire Authorities. As for the IFE register anyone with a surname starting with A gets first shot if someone goes on it (unless its changed recently) everyone registered probably said they can work in all geographical areas and as such the searches that people make just throw up names alphabetically, as my surname starts with a W I would have no chance even if I wanted to use it for acquiring work!!!
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Longjohn
I made comment to the IFE about what I considered to be the ridiculousness of the way the IFE register is listed. That is to say that the vast majority of those listed say they will work anywhere and consequently you look up (say) the South West of England and somebody in Scotland is listed - ridiculous!!
I believe sourcing locally is best (within a 100 mile radius) and certainly, if I were sourcing for anything for myself I would source locally, so when matters arise, (like they so often do) I can grab the contractor by the balls and rectify the matter sooner rather than later.
I hope the IFE consider the matter again in the near future.
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Longjohn
I made comment to the IFE about what I considered to be the ridiculousness of the way the IFE register is listed. That is to say that the vast majority of those listed say they will work anywhere and consequently you look up (say) the South West of England and somebody in Scotland is listed - ridiculous!!
I believe sourcing locally is best (within a 100 mile radius) and certainly, if I were sourcing for anything for myself I would source locally, so when matters arise, (like they so often do) I can grab the contractor by the balls and rectify the matter sooner rather than later.
I hope the IFE consider the matter again in the near future.
I totally agree with your comments, my brigade will only point people towards third party accredited assessors, the problem I have is that they can't find the local one.
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That's right, all the IFE need to do is make the enquirers 'hits' to the register regional to the assessors in that area first and then further afield, as I say at the moment anyone on the register with their name beginning with 'A' gets all of the hits first no matter where they are. If anyone wants to use the register for acquiring work interest well, until the IFE change it I suggest they change their name to Aaron Aardvark! that should do the trick!!!