third party certification for fire risk assessors - will it take off?

[kurnal]

With important deadlines looming for the IFSM register and the FIA registers will the FRACS/NAFRAR and BAFE SP205 schemes take off or will these organisations see a large reduction in membership?

Will you apply?

Why do you think take up has been slow so far?

What would make you apply?

What  is putting you off applying?

[Golden]

Kurnal as you know I've been there with respect to 205 and had the registration for nearly a year. I found the process to be OK to be honest but found that requiring a 'one man band' to have a further assessment after six months was ridiculous and came at a very busy time for me, in addition having been on the register for about nine months I didn't receive one phone call. For me it was too expensive to maintain and I couldn't see any benefit to me in keeping up the registration. In addition I see plenty of work from BAFE registered companies that is sub-standard/shocking therefore in my opinion its not for me and the RP is merely having the wool pulled over their eyes.

The 205 scheme in my opinion is about QA for the business; its not necessarily about competence of the assessor. I have plenty of endorsements about the quality of the work and a degree certificate to confirm my competence in the field of fire engineering; my current stance with respect to TPA is that competence should mean a formal qualification and my recommendation would be the minimum of a degree qualification. I think that we should start adopting the EU definition of 'competent person' in the UK rather than the Brazier v. Skipton Rock criteria that has allowed people with neither qualifications nor experience to be deemed as 'competent' on payment of a few quid. SP205 is a check that you have a list of BS's, management procedures, a H & S policy etc. and very little with respect to fire risk and even less that you understand fire from first principles.

[Tom Sutton]

I have plenty of endorsements about the quality of the work and a degree certificate to confirm my competence in the field of fire engineering; my current stance with respect to TPA is that competence should mean a formal qualification and my recommendation would be the minimum of a degree qualification.

I think you should have a a formal qualification but not necessary to degree level. We have the syllabus, "FIRE RISK ASSESSMENT COMPETENCY COUNCIL - Competency Criteria for Fire Risk Assessors" and any prospective candidate should be tested on it and if successful given an appropriate formal certificate or placed on a register to prove their competence.

[AnthonyB]

Golden,

Who did you do your SP205 through? We had to prove competency for all our staff on ours and reports are audited for content with consultants having to be audited on site (including viva voce type test to check knowledge and rationale behind decisions) i.e. a lot more than just the QA and resource elements

[Golden]

Anthony as I said earlier 'for a one man band' - so yes all our consultants (me) were audited including on site but to be honest the IFE check was much much harder for technical content. It shouldn't matter who I got the 205 through as surely they are all to the same standard or TPA wouldn't be any good would it???

Tom - would you expect someone surveying your house to merely have fulfilled a set of criteria designed by a few people in the industry sat around a table? If we're serious about accrediting surely we have to be driving towards a degree level minimum standard?

(Apologies to Kurnal and a few others on here who were sat around that table - devil's advocate is in play!)

[kurnal]

I have not yet made a final decision. For my micro business there is no commercial requirement for TPC - none of my customers, including govt and related organisations appear to be in the least concerned whether we are certified or not. Some welcome the move towards TPC but all say that it would not stop them using our services if we do not register. On the other hand I would be very sorry to have to leave the FIA - but is that sufficient reason - other than personal pride - to go through the cost and hassle as Golden has found?

[William 29]

With important deadlines looming for the IFSM register and the FIA registers will the FRACS/NAFRAR and BAFE SP205 schemes take off or will these organisations see a large reduction in membership?

Will you apply?

Why do you think take up has been slow so far?

What would make you apply?

What  is putting you off applying?

Kurnal as you know we were the 4th Company to gain BAFE SP205 and we are on our 3rd surveillance visit due next month. This equates to around ?1,000 for the year and at each visit we have had a number of our assessors have on-site witness audits so they can be classed as "validators" and be able to sign off FRAs. Once validated we have applied to go on the NAFRA register, 2 are on NAFRAR at the moment.

I think uptake is slow as it hasn't been pushed in the industry and also fear of the unknown and the process. It's not complicated at all really and if you are producing quality FRAs with supporting company procedures, knowledge, CPD, polices, controlled document list etc then it should be no problem. The point being it's what a good assessor/company should be doing anyway.

The point we all seem to miss here is it's not about generating business (that's a bonus, and we have had plenty) it's not about how much "hassle" it is. It's about there being an industry competency standard out there, be it BAFE or FRACS etc and although not mandatory is something that we should be striving to gain.

[Dinnertime Dave]

I think it has to take off. More and more as an I/O I am asked to recommend somebody to carry out a fire risk assessment, I can't and I wouldn't recommend anyone by name, but I can recommend that the RP looks on the various registers and chooses somebody off the list.

[Tom Sutton]

Golden it depends on the degree of theoretical and practical knowledge required to produce a competent report. For Fire Risk assessing  the depth of theoretical knowledge required, in my opinion, is far less than what is require to gain pass in a degree course. As for the practical knowledge and experience I would imagine very little forms part of a degree course but it is essential to produce a competent FRA report.

As for the "Competency Criteria for Fire Risk Assessors" I am sure it would be possible to have it amended if it doesn't meet the purpose it was design for.

NB. I am discussing Fire Risk Assessing not Fire Consultancy which would require a much higher level of theoretical knowledge.

[Kelsall]

It should be about the independent third party reference that certification gives you. i.e. it isn't just me saying I am a good guy, I have a third party reference. The problem is that the bad assessors are credible they don't wear a T-shirt with 'I am crap at my job' written on it. They get just as much work as the good assessors possibly more.

Those who claim to be competent need to be looking at the guy who is competing against him and asking how can I differentiate myself from him?  You don?t need to! However he doesn?t need to be competent either; those responsible providers need to help change the landscape and get the playing field levelled. The CBs also need to do more work promoting the value of choosing someone with certification above one that has none and the FRS need to focus on the bad assessors in their area and start to take an interest in their work if it is substandard. Having said that; it needs to be really, really poor for the FRS to show an interest.

There still need to be a bit more work done on generating the commercial advantage for being certificated I agree but that would be a lot easier if the good could get certificated and start to promote and tell potential clients about it. It is a catch 22 and no doubt what will happen is the IFSM guys will not get certificated the FIA will lose members and the world of fire risk assessment will be no worse off for that. The world of fire risk assessment would be a better place if the poor providers could be marginalised and taken out of the pool of jobbing assessor. How can that be done? The IFSM guys need to get third party certification from an accredited CB as do the FIA members and all other responsible providers too.

[Dinnertime Dave]

It should be about the independent third party reference that certification gives you. i.e. it isn't just me saying I am a good guy, I have a third party reference. The problem is that the bad assessors are credible they don't wear a T-shirt with 'I am crap at my job' written on it. They get just as much work as the good assessors possibly

You're right some will get as much work as the good ones. An ex colleague and friend is chair of a village hall and wanted somebody to do the FRA had a range of people interested prices ranged from ?90-?450 The ?90 quote was from a retired 30 year operational firefighter. We both laughed when we saw the name. Perhaps I should buy him that T-shirt.

The frightening thing his he might do a couple of those a week and produce poor assessments. Low risk premises unlikely to be audited and only found out if something goes wrong.

I leave the fire service in 9 months and will get accredited before I join the real world. But would welcome advice which one to go for. Tempted to go down the IFE route - only because I have passed Colin's FRA course and it seem more straightforward.

Why doesn't the pound sign work?

[nearlythere]

It should be about the independent third party reference that certification gives you. i.e. it isn't just me saying I am a good guy, I have a third party reference. The problem is that the bad assessors are credible they don't wear a T-shirt with 'I am crap at my job' written on it. They get just as much work as the good assessors possibly

You're right some will get as much work as the good ones. An ex colleague and friend is chair of a village hall and wanted somebody to do the FRA had a range of people interested prices ranged from ?90-?450 The ?90 quote was from a retired 30 year operational firefighter. We both laughed when we saw the name. Perhaps I should buy him that T-shirt.

The frightening thing his he might do a couple of those a week and produce poor assessments. Low risk premises unlikely to be audited and only found out if something goes wrong.

I leave the fire service in 9 months and will get accredited before I join the real world. But would welcome advice which one to go for. Tempted to go down the IFE route - only because I have passed Colin's FRA course and it seem more straightforward.

Why doesn't the pound sign work?

I would try the IFE one DT. The other one turned in to a farce for me.

[Tom W]

Ultimately you seek TPC to get more work.

I did it, we got no additional jobs through having it. In fact no one even knew or cared about it.

If you want more work, give the money you would spend on TPC to a decent marketer and SEO expert.

Drive traffic to your website and list your credentials on there.

[William 29]

Ultimately you seek TPC to get more work.

I did it, we got no additional jobs through having it. In fact no one even knew or cared about it.

If you want more work, give the money you would spend on TPC to a decent marketer and SEO expert.

Drive traffic to your website and list your credentials on there.

Great advice 

[colin todd]

Big Al, in answer to your questions:

We have applied and been certificated
Nothing would put me off applying
Nothing would  make me apply, I did it myself
The uptake is slow because fire safety sadly is a second rate profession compared to other professionals with whom we would like to equate ourselves and it will not get better until the profession realises that and shows more professionalism in putting it sown house in order and stopping cowboy practitioners.

If the FIA lose members because they are not prepared to seek the TPC that they signed up to getting, so be it. Its not about bums on seats. Its about ensuring that if a member of the public uses an FIA member, whether for maintenance of their fea or designing their fire alarm system, they are not just buying the services of a company that paid a cheque and got membership-they are using companies in whom there can be the confidence of TPC.  The FIA should be applauded for trying to drag the industry to where it ought to be.