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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => Fire Safety => Topic started by: Bruce89 on May 29, 2014, 06:24:47 PM

Title: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: Bruce89 on May 29, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
Can anyone tell me where the requirement that appliances should not have to reverse more than 20 metres originates from?
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: kurnal on May 30, 2014, 08:06:12 AM
Assuming you are talking about England and Wales it probably originated in Home Office Fire Prevention Note 1/70 before being incorporated into the Building Regulations Approved Document B in 1991. It may also incoprorated in some local Acts applicable prior to 1991, there was also a planning guide for housing developments (cant remember the title) that refers to it.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: wee brian on May 30, 2014, 09:18:40 AM
Para 16.11, Diagram 50 in the current edition of AD B
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: Bruce89 on May 30, 2014, 09:59:03 AM
Thanks Brian but I meant not where it is now stated, but where does it originate from?

Thanks Kurnal but it appears at the moment  judging by you stating "probably", no one can give a definite answer...yet!
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: kurnal on May 30, 2014, 11:24:13 AM
I am 95% certain it was specifically mentioned in HO FP1/70 but cant find a copy to confirm!

But it is clear that prior to 1 June 1992 there were no legal requirements under Building Regulations regarding provision of access for fire appliances. However it was recommended in accordance with FP Note 1/70, Dear Chief Officer letter 6/76, the contemporary manual of firemanship Book 8, The Town and Country Planning Act and some Local Acts.

Theres a few lines of enquiry available there if you have time and inclination. I have been unable to find a copy of 1/70 in Government archives online. I have a hard copy but its in my filing system (joke)  somewhere and I cant put my hands on it.

Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: Mike Buckley on May 30, 2014, 12:32:31 PM
It may be a tale similar to the Glasgow evacuation time, but the story I heard was that the 20m limit was based on 25 yards which was about as far as you could get a horse to reverse in the day of the horse drawn pumps! Not sure of the accuracy but a good tale.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: wee brian on May 30, 2014, 01:07:49 PM
There are various plausible explanations, but nothing that you would call evidence.

Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: nearlythere on May 30, 2014, 02:05:46 PM
It may be a tale similar to the Glasgow evacuation time, but the story I heard was that the 20m limit was based on 25 yards which was about as far as you could get a horse to reverse in the day of the horse drawn pumps! Not sure of the accuracy but a good tale.
Sounds plausible alright.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: John Webb on May 30, 2014, 10:20:45 PM
I am 95% certain it was specifically mentioned in HO FP1/70 but cant find a copy to confirm!

But it is clear that prior to 1 June 1992 there were no legal requirements under Building Regulations regarding provision of access for fire appliances. However it was recommended in accordance with FP Note 1/70, Dear Chief Officer letter 6/76, the contemporary manual of firemanship Book 8, The Town and Country Planning Act and some Local Acts.

Theres a few lines of enquiry available there if you have time and inclination. I have been unable to find a copy of 1/70 in Government archives online. I have a hard copy but its in my filing system (joke)  somewhere and I cant put my hands on it.
The 1974 MoF Book 8, Chapter 12 on access for appliances, does say that the FP Note 1/70 contains HO recommendations for appliance access. It also says that the 1974 H&S @Work would have powers regarding access, and it was expected that Building Regs would have their scope extended accordingly. Curiously the MoF says nothing about reversing distances!
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: Bruce89 on June 02, 2014, 07:12:50 PM
Thanks to all for your replies
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: Dinnertime Dave on June 02, 2014, 08:56:50 PM
It may be a tale similar to the Glasgow evacuation time, but the story I heard was that the 20m limit was based on 25 yards which was about as far as you could get a horse to reverse in the day of the horse drawn pumps! Not sure of the accuracy but a good tale.

I'm with you Mike, that's the tail I heard too.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: colin todd on June 05, 2014, 10:47:14 PM
For God's sake Buckers, the evacuation time came from Edinburgh not Glasgow. Sheesh, English people and their geography.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: nearlythere on June 05, 2014, 10:53:24 PM
For God's sake Buckers, the evacuation time came from Edinburgh not Glasgow. Sheesh, English people and their geography.
Is that Edinburgh the capital of Wales outside London?)
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: mevans421 on June 11, 2014, 10:09:33 PM
I think its the furthest distance that a fireman can drive backwards without denting the truck!
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: Mike Buckley on June 12, 2014, 04:17:51 PM
For God's sake Buckers, the evacuation time came from Edinburgh not Glasgow. Sheesh, English people and their geography.

Why should I worry, if Mr Fish gets his way it will become foreign anyhow!
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: lingmoor on June 20, 2014, 09:44:55 AM
Romans init

or is that exit width and getting bods through a door?

Moreton was a long time ago
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: kurnal on June 20, 2014, 09:53:23 AM
Que?
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: lingmoor on June 20, 2014, 10:04:34 AM
I vaguely remember being sat in the windowless lecture rooms in Moreton daydreaming of the forthcoming night out in the bugs and all the thrills that would bring...when my trance like state was momentarily interupted by the person at the front reading from his scripts, who  divulged the astonishing fact that exit width and the two and a half minute evacuation times were due to 100 Roman soldiers lining up in a single file to see how long it would take to get out

I quickly went back to daydreaming
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: nearlythere on June 20, 2014, 01:22:33 PM
I vaguely remember being sat in the windowless lecture rooms in Moreton daydreaming of the forthcoming night out in the bugs and all the thrills that would bring...when my trance like state was momentarily interupted by the person at the front reading from his scripts, who  divulged the astonishing fact that exit width and the two and a half minute evacuation times were due to 100 Roman soldiers lining up in a single file to see how long it would take to get out

I quickly went back to daydreaming
What sort of watches did they have in Roman times to be able to time two and a half minutes. They only had two times of the day. Sunrise and sunset. All in between was just day or night time.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: lingmoor on June 20, 2014, 10:56:13 PM
When I joined the Fire Service, there was one or two old hands that had first hand knowledge, and they said the watches in them days were red,white blue and green... same as they always was
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: idlefire on June 21, 2014, 10:46:39 AM
All right, but apart from exit width calcs, what have the Romans ever done for us?
  ;)
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: nearlythere on June 21, 2014, 11:20:13 AM
All right, but apart from exit width calcs, what have the Romans ever done for us?
  ;)
Roads?
Its football team
Viaducts.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: colin todd on June 22, 2014, 08:48:23 PM
Kurnal did you delete my theory, so infringing my human right of free speech or did it not save.
Title: Re: Approved Document B (B5)
Post by: kurnal on June 22, 2014, 09:33:38 PM
Yes I did delete it. It was like throwing a fire cracker into the ring and then running away leaving me to try and catch it with my butterfly net before it burned me on the bottom.