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FIRE SERVICE AND GENERAL FIRE SAFETY TOPICS => General Interest => Topic started by: Tom Sutton on August 04, 2015, 12:02:53 PM
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I believe the Defence Fire and Rescue Service is the enforcing authority for the RR(FS)O in army installations and barracks and consequently will conduct audits, accordingly, but who conducts the FRA,s are there different sections or do they do both (poacher and gamekeeper)?
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In my experience its the base fire crew who complete the FRA, and a FSO from a regional office who audit them. However, it is a curious idea that the Responsible Person is also the Enforcer.
I have worked for a commercial customer who have premises on military bases (retail etc) and its a difficult and rather rigid environment to work with when one is not military and used to a non prescriptive risk based approach
I do not intend to hijack this thread Tom, but as we are talking DFRMO, has anyone any idea who will enforce fire safety on MoD bases when DFRMO is privatised? Or will the enforcement part remain within the MoD???
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The DFRS cannot issue 29, 30 notices, cannot prosecute and do not have the powers of entry so their powers are limited.
I believe it is the Royal Air Force Rescue and Firefighting Service that there is talk of privatisation the Defence Fire and Rescue Service is civilianised, but is this privatisation? Both train at RAF Manston will this continue?
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Probably not now that Manston is to be a lorry park ;D
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have they run out of space at the ones they created at donnington?
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Tom, Messy, Having spoken with someone who would tell me; There are people in DFRS/DFRMO who conduct the FRA on behalf of the RP/occupier. There is a seperate branch of fire officers, the Defence Fire Safety Regulators, for audit and enforcement purposes. The RP is still the RP as identified by the RR(FS)O 2005 who, is usually the commanding officer - this is across army, navy and airforce sites (ships classed as at sea excepted I believe).
DFRMO already consists of civil servants, RAF military and contract fire services. All parts are in consideration to be contracted (except navy aircraft handlers) - whole or parts.
Colin, I made enquiries and have been assured that you have not been left out - there is a space for your motor reserved!! (however, the spot marked CO, is not short for Colin!)
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Tom, Messy, Having spoken with someone who would tell me; There are people in DFRS/DFRMO who conduct the FRA on behalf of the RP/occupier. There is a seperate branch of fire officers, the Defence Fire Safety Regulators, for audit and enforcement purposes. The RP is still the RP as identified by the RR(FS)O 2005 who, is usually the commanding officer - this is across army, navy and airforce sites (ships classed as at sea excepted I believe).
DFRMO already consists of civil servants, RAF military and contract fire services. All parts are in consideration to be contracted (except navy aircraft handlers) - whole or parts.
Colin, I made enquiries and have been assured that you have not been left out - there is a space for your motor reserved!! (however, the spot marked CO, is not short for Colin!)
Just one comment - unlikely (in my view) that the RP will be the CO. It's likely to be the Employer of the Relevant Persons - usually a Company but I guess in the case of the Armed Forces it'll be whoever the service personnel contracts of employment are with. CO will have a role to play, certainly, but (so far as I've been told by a number of legal beagles) it's only in the smaller organisations that a single individual will be the RP. It's normally a 'corporate' responsibility.
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The "RP" is the crown. Represented by the MOD.
They are exempt prosecution (Crown v Crown). Its the same for other crown premises but they are inspected by CPIG. I think the MOD does its own thing for obvious security reasons.
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No. The RP is the CO. This is due to having control to 'an' extent over the employees and premises. The CO may also be known as CEO, HOE, or otherwise. There is a 'clear' delegation down from the top as to who is RP. It can furhter handed down to local unit commanders residing on a large base, but, the person, under which ever pseudonym they be known, who is RP is the one in charge of the base. But, yes, thee well could be, anumber of persons who could therefore be identified just like a corporate business/board of directors etc.
Enforcement notices have been served on some of these people.
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I finally found what I was looking for, the Defence Fire Risk Management Organisation runs the MOD fire and rescue services both military and civilian and as a fire authority is the enforcing authority for the RR(FS)O.
They are responsible for the military (Royal Air Force Trade Group 8 Firefighter and Royal Navy Aircraft Handler), civil service (Defence Fire and Rescue Service). The rank structure is fire service not military and they are located at Andover, Hampshire. Training is at Defence Fire Training and Development Centre at Manston situated in Kent close to the town of Ramsgate.
Policy Instruction 02/10 states, Currently the Crown has immunity from the Building Regulations however this is superseded by MOD policy which mandates that all building works must comply with the minimum standards imposed by the Building Regulations, so the RR(FS)O with some limitations and the Building Regulations apply.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/defence-fire-risk-management-organisation
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jsp-426-fire-safety-manual
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No. The RP is the CO. This is due to having control to 'an' extent over the employees and premises. The CO may also be known as CEO, HOE, or otherwise. There is a 'clear' delegation down from the top as to who is RP. It can furhter handed down to local unit commanders residing on a large base, but, the person, under which ever pseudonym they be known, who is RP is the one in charge of the base. But, yes, thee well could be, anumber of persons who could therefore be identified just like a corporate business/board of directors etc.
Enforcement notices have been served on some of these people.
Think Wee B is correct - in anything but the smallest of organisations RP is rarely an individual (despite what you'd understandably infer from the word "person")! You can't delegate the responsibilities of an RP.
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agreed. the CO might be a person with responsibilities but they wont be the RP. The CO doesn't employ the soldiers, thats the Crown.
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Yup, we b is right. I blame the queen. (And, history question, who was QE 1 of the UK??????????)
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(And, history question, who was QE 1 of the UK??????????)
Was??? Has something happened???
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QE 1 of the UK was a 40,000 ish tonner out of Southampton
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Last seen on fire in Hong Kong harbour if I remember correctly.
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Our current QE2 of ENGLAND is the first Elizabeth to reign over the entire UK. In rains a lot in Scotland so its different there.....
This doesn't affect the Crown status of Military facilities.
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I have second question regarding military bases, is barrack blocks/ablutions blocks considered domestic premises and exempt from the RR(FS)O?
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Sod the barracks, let me get this clear, she is QE2 of England then, not of the UK????? Reminds me of the old song-Scotland hasnae got a king and she hasnae got a queen, for how can you hae a Liz the twa when the first yin's never been?
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I have second question regarding military bases, is barrack blocks/ablutions blocks considered domestic premises and exempt from the RR(FS)O?
I am not sure what you mean by barrack blocks
The barracks in London are often large blocks of (scruffy) flats, so they most certainly DO fall within the Fire Safety Order
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Accommodation for military personnel.
https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A9mSs3dz8chVcD4AM4tLBQx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByZmVxM3N0BGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?p=Barrack+Blocks&fr=yfp-t-903
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Kurnal could you enlighten me about the student accommodation in the west mids that a ruling says it is not subject to the RR(FS)O, I know you have mentioned it recently but I cannot find it.
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http://www.crisis-response.com/forum/?topic=4260.0
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Sod the barracks, let me get this clear, she is QE2 of England then, not of the UK?
Colin,
It depends on what you call The United Kingdom. As you can see from the brief history below the first Act of Union was in 1536 in which case Queen Elizabeth I could have ruled over a United Kingdom although Wales was only considered to be Principality.
The relationships among the countries of the United Kingdom have changed over time. Wales was annexed by the Kingdom of England under the Acts of Union of 1536 and 1543. A treaty between England and Scotland resulted in 1707 in a unified Kingdom of Great Britain, which merged in 1801 with the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1922, five-sixths of Ireland seceded from the country, leaving the present formulation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Also as you can see England and Scotland did not officially unify until after the Stuarts had been booted out.
Colin, you are living in England you really ought to look at English history occaisionally.
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Thanks Kurnal
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The barracks in London are often large blocks of (scruffy) flats, so they most certainly DO fall within the Fire Safety Order
Could not barrack blocks fall within Victoria Hall ruling, see Kurnals above link?
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Could not barrack blocks fall within Victoria Hall ruling, see Kurnals above link?
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I doubt it, but I'm not sure thats relevant to this debate. wether its a block of dwellings or something else, the Order applies.
In this case the RP is the crown, represented by the MOD. so Inspection and enforcement is throught the crown process.
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I doubt it, but I'm not sure thats relevant to this debate. wether its a block of dwellings or something else, the Order applies.
In this case the RP is the crown, represented by the MOD. so Inspection and enforcement is throught the crown process.
I agree it is irrelevant when it comes to prosecution but when a civilian contractor works in a military barracks what guidance does he use.
Barrack blocks is similar to student accommodation and are they flats, bedsits or private dwellings.
Both are subject to the building Regulations and the maybe the RR(FS)O this is why I am interested in the Victoria House findings. Do you use ADB volume 1 or 2, the DCLG guidance and British Standards?
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Willing to be shot as the messanger AGAIN! Military barrack blocks aka sleeping accommodation, - single living accommodation falls under RRO as it is classed as forming part of their workplace. Married quarters for families are not. If married quarters are used for singles, then they are.
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Departed the RAF Fire and Rescue Service late 2013, after 22 years service. My last three years were spent as the fire safety officer for one of our larger airbase's in Lincolnshire, carrying out FRA's on crown estate, and several cadet units throughout the UK. Happy to answer any general queries regarding the thread.....subject to the offical secrets act, and getting shot at dawn by Betty Windsors finest!!!
DFRMO is (was) the umbrella organisation covering the various RAF, Navy and Army fire services, and we still train at Manston (except the Navy, they like to be different, and land based units dont sink). I completed my basic training at Manston in 1991, approx 2 years after it became the central training school, and rumors of its closure were rife even then. Its still going strong 24 years later, surving as a military enclave to the side of Manston Intl Airport/M20 Lorry Park.
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firescot10 it appears that the RR(FS)O applies to barrack blocks and ablution blocks what guidance do you use?
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Tom,
England & Wales if there, Scotland if there, appropriate as we should do. Also they have 'Crown Fire Standards' (CFS), well old but, due to Crown being 'self insuring' there may be more stringent requirements either in the engineered fire strategy or elsewhere. i.e. AFD - L1 as opposed to L2 for sleeping risks. CFS directs the reader to relevant E&W or S guidance, bs' etc. but that is where it is old as 'some' bs' have changed 'a little bit'...
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I served in the RAF Fire & Rescue Service although wasn't involved in fire safety back then.
So you get an idea of these buildings in case you aren't aware.
The majority of the older style barrack blocks are made up of private individual rooms that are fitted out with a bed, wardrobes and sink. Toilets and showers are shared meaning that these blocks are essentially classed as HMO's and are same sex. As such, fire alarms, emergency lighting and fire extinguishers is standard. It is also common that alternate exits are provided.
Newer style blocks are ensuite rooms meaning the loss of the communal shower/toilet areas but small communal areas are provided with microwaves etc (mixed sex). Even in these blocks, fire alarms, emergency lighting and fire extinguishers are provided. Again, alternate escape routes are common.
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Tom,
The standard document were the same as in civi street (AD'B', DCLG Guidlines, Common sense [on occassion]) along with the aforementioned Queen Fire Regulations.
We were the 'advising' authority at individual station level, with a bit of 'enforcing' authority also applied where necessary..... If the said advise was ignored, the problem would be raised to our local DFRMO HQ, where a suitably qualified DFRMO officer would then become the enforcing authority to the responsible person.
Responsible persons in the military are Senior NCO's or Junior Commissioned Officers, they are either 'volunteered' to become a particular buildings Officer in Charge, or they will volunteer themselves, as it helps on the slippery promotion ladder. The volunteering isnt hapahazard, its usually someone with a direct involvement with a particular building, or someones particular hobby in regards to the many small clubs occupying older buildings that are no longer needed.