Retrospective installation of intumescent strips and cold smoke seals

[kurnal]

Most fire brigades have as a matter of course been recommending the fitting of smoke seals to existing fire doors for years.
Especially in life risks.
Its driven by the enforcers.
But smoke and fire seals are of considerable benefit in many situations. In others it is not so important.

Incompetent? I dont know. Covering backsides?  Perhaps. But not many are brave enough to accept a mix of standards in buildings. And now you are sending out the guys and gals on the pumps to do your inspections again, with even less training than ever before, will anything change?

I must repeat my point about the particular door (or doorset) being installed in accordance with the maunfacturers instructions and replicating the conditions as tested.  

Fire Authorities set their policies and who is the consultant to question these? Its a lose lose situation to argue with the enforcer. Heres another example- one brigade I have dealt with have told me that they will not accept as suitable and sufficient  a risk assessment that does not include a plan of the building. Now where does it say that in the RRO?

[PhilB]

Its a lose lose situation to argue with the enforcer. Heres another example- one brigade I have dealt with have told me that they will not accept as suitable and sufficient  a risk assessment that does not include a plan of the building. Now where does it say that in the RRO?

Challenge them Kurnal, as sure as eggs are eggs they'll back down. I personally think a plan is the best way to record the preventive & protective measures, but I have also seen many suitable & sufficient assessments that do not include a plan.

[jokar]

Providing they are recommended that is fine, but to enforce it is another matter.  I think more and more appeals will come if IO's can not get pass the requirement bit.

[Richard Earl]

rocha

i have seen a product used in old hotels ( accepted by the local fire officer) doing the same job as smoke seals with out routing out the door, it called envirograff and just sticks into the corner of teh door.

it might help you with your problem

richard

[Fishy]

With regard to Blue-Spud's posting - it all comes down to what is 'reasonably practicable'.  In this case, it would have been easy and cheap to install the strips (i.e. follow good industry practice - BS 8214) when the doors were installed.  Difficult to make the case that it wasn't.  Whether it is more expensive to retro-fit them is irrelevant - it is the cost of getting the installation right in the first place that should be used to judge reasonable practicability, not the cost/difficulty of the remedial works.

On the debate of whether they're useful or not - not really relevant in this case.  Their use is good industry practice, and following this is normally considered to be the measure of what is reasonably practicable, for new / replacement installations of any safety equipment.

[blue-spud]

Thanks for all your feedback on this.

The door is protecting a 1st floor office stairwell enclosure on top of a factory unit.  There is an exit to ultimate safety from office, via a flat roof and fixed external stairwell but no AFD.  

I have checked the manufacturers website ref the door and it says it should be fitted with all the seals etc.  But i guess that's to bring it in line with todays regs.  

I still think i should insist on the seals being fitted though.

[nearlythere]

You have to look at the rationale behind the construction of a fire door. What does it cost to have a fire door tested? What does it cost to have a fire door tested twice - the first time without smoke seals, intumesence everywhere, 3 hinges, et al? What is the cost of adding seals, intumescence, and a third hinge to ensure a successful test? Peanuts compared to risking a test failure. Has anyone submitted a door without all of this for test?
Most of us know that a door tested without the add ons could pass but there probably isn't a certificate anywhere to say so.

[Auntie LIn]

Sorry chaps - there's some mis-information here.
The fire test is NOT at 800 deg C.   It starts at ambient temperature and follows a prescribed temperature/time relationship.   It's supposed to reach 800+ at about 30 minutes - which means there's been plenty of time at temperatures above which life can be sustained (OK I know there's not going to be anyone inside, but temperatures above even 150C don't do a door a whole heap of any good).

The thing you all seem to be ignoring totally is the leaf/frame gap.   If this is tight - less than 2mm, then you may well find that the door will stay good until the good ol' FB gets there, but in all honesty, as a percentage of fire doors you look at, how many will be this well fitting and have gaps which are even all round the periphery.   I see plenty of fire doors in the course of a year and can probably count on the fingers of one hand those which I would consider to be "well fitting".   As no-one seems to give a fig about whether doors are maintained once the cowboy has slung them into the hole and made sure the 25mm stop at least covers the door edge, don't you think it might be sensible to fit seals to give the occupants and the building a fighting chance?

As far as fire seals are concerned, there are now retro-fit seals available which can be surface mounted to the frame (opposite the leaf edge please, not on the 25mm stop).   These are about 1mm thick but perhaps 25mm wide and have a degree of grip so that if the leaf is moving they are making a contribution to keeping it in place and the gaps sealed.

The other thing to remember is that as blue spud (I think) said, new doors fitted will have been tested with all modern accoutrements (seals, third hinge etc).   Don't be conned by the old saw that it's a 30 minute door with seals but it'll do 20 if it doesn't have them.   This is as much a myth as the "the doorstop's the thing".
I know what Uncle B is saying about seals not being needed in a real fire, but until such time as he can guarantee just what a real fire will entail, I'd rather protect my PI and do it by the book!

That's enough of Auntie Lin's potted fire door lecture for one night - have a good weekend

[PhilB]

The door is protecting a 1st floor office stairwell enclosure on top of a factory unit.  There is an exit to ultimate safety from office, via a flat roof and fixed external stairwell but no AFD.  

I have checked the manufacturers website ref the door and it says it should be fitted with all the seals etc.  But i guess that's to bring it in line with todays regs.  

I still think i should insist on the seals being fitted though.

If there is an alternative exit from the office without using the stair, what are you worried about. How will fitting strips and seals make the people in the office any safer?? Or are you worried about a fire in the office affecting the means of escape for others?

If the door is at the top of the stairs it is unlikely to be an issue at all!

Please don't take offence, as none is intended but it if you are asking these questions, are you really competent to carry out the assessment. It worries me greatly that people are being asked to assess quite complex buildings without the relevant knowledge & understanding.  What training has your employer given you before expecting you to assess this building.?

[Fishy]

You have to look at the rationale behind the construction of a fire door. What does it cost to have a fire door tested? What does it cost to have a fire door tested twice - the first time without smoke seals, intumesence everywhere, 3 hinges, et al? What is the cost of adding seals, intumescence, and a third hinge to ensure a successful test? Peanuts compared to risking a test failure. Has anyone submitted a door without all of this for test?
Most of us know that a door tested without the add ons could pass but there probably isn't a certificate anywhere to say so.

Yep - I've seen them tested, many times.  A door that will easily do 30mins+ with the seals etc typically does between 10 and 20 mins without them - depends on the frame material and the size of the door gaps.  As I said, if you're installing new or refurbishing existing fire resisting doorsets there really isn't an excuse not to install strips and seals - it's good industry practice and HSE guidance is that you shouldn't use risk assessment to avoid following this, unless it's difficult and expensive to do so.

[blue-spud]

The door is protecting a 1st floor office stairwell enclosure on top of a factory unit.  There is an exit to ultimate safety from office, via a flat roof and fixed external stairwell but no AFD.  

I have checked the manufacturers website ref the door and it says it should be fitted with all the seals etc.  But i guess that's to bring it in line with todays regs.  

I still think i should insist on the seals being fitted though.

If there is an alternative exit from the office without using the stair, what are you worried about. How will fitting strips and seals make the people in the office any safer?? Or are you worried about a fire in the office affecting the means of escape for others?

If the door is at the top of the stairs it is unlikely to be an issue at all!

Please don't take offence, as none is intended but it if you are asking these questions, are you really competent to carry out the assessment. It worries me greatly that people are being asked to assess quite complex buildings without the relevant knowledge & understanding.  What training has your employer given you before expecting you to assess this building.?

Phil, Unless i am greatly mistaken I think you trained me about 6 months ago?!?

[PhilB]

You must be more than competent then!!! But seriously I was making a valid point not aimed particularly at you. There are many employers that believe a few hours basic fire safety training enables their employees to adequately assess very complex buildings. It does not.

I hope you enjoyed the course.

[blue-spud]

You must be more than competent then!!! But seriously I was making a valid point not aimed particularly at you. There are many employers that believe a few hours basic fire safety training enables their employees to adequately assess very complex buildings. It does not.

I hope you enjoyed the course.

Phil, i think you are sooo right.  All i have done is a 4.5 day course and according to my company "i am now the expert".   To be honest i dont think i will ever be an "expert" but hopefully i will continue to pick things up as i go along.

The course was ok but far to many coffee breaks! lol

Steve H