Retrospective installation of intumescent strips and cold smoke seals

[Rocha]

A significant number of fire doors sets in non modern buildings I visit are not installed with intumescent strips and cold smoke seals.
I always recomend the installation of strips and seals, although the fire doors would not have required them when the buildings were being constructed.
Do you think this is an over onerous recomendation or good fire safety practice??

I would appreciate any opinions.

Thanks,

Rocha

[Peter Wilkinson]

Definately the latter.  Any assessment should be based on current best practice and thinking, and therefore strips and seals are to be recommended (where fire and smoke resisting doorsets are required in order to make the fire strategy work).

[Martin Burford]

PW......but those doors mentioned by Rocha......would have 35mm x 25mm stops.........much better in my view.
Conqueror.

[jokar]

Recommend, ny all means but the retrofit of these means routing the door out and fitting them.  It is not a really suitable arrangement especially if the door stops are ok.  It met the BS 476 standard of the day.

[wee brian]

Door stop size has very little/naf all to do with door performance.

smoke seals are great (unless there is a pressurisation system in place) Intumescents are probably not so important but if you are putting a smoke seal in you may as well do both at the same time.

[Martin Burford]

wb.....afraid dont agree!.............and you musy know that smoke seals may make pressurisation ineffective in some circumstances.
Conqueror

[Uncle Dave]

The only use for a 25mm deep stop is to give you something to scrape your knuckles on when you turn the door knob.

A serious view.  A 25 mm deep stop can cover a large door to frame gap, allowing poor workmanship or poor maintenance on the doorset.

Also, consider what happens over time, as the door leaf distorts, and twists away from the stop.  Under those circumstances the stop is having no effect at all.  When there is a fire the leaf will distort even more and move it further from the stop.

Fit intumescent seals.

Dave

[wee brian]

Conq - what is it that you don't agree with?

Look at my post again I specificaly mention pressurisation so - yes I do know.

Doors started to fail the test when they changed the pressure distribution in the test. Supposedly this was to be more like a real fire. In all other respects its nothing like a real fire, other than it gets really rather hot.

The change to the test was driven by academics, there had been no reports that indicated that older fire doors were letting people down.

Intumescent seals came onto the market to get doors through the new test (maybe they changed the test so we had to buy them???) I am sure they are good at times but I doubt we really need them.

Like I say smoke seals (where appropriate) are great, although many of them are of poor quality and fall to bits after a few years.

Intumescents dont do any harm and will help a bit, maybe.

[jokar]

Let me get this right then.  What we are saying is that all buildings built to Building Regs standards and in many cases certified by FRS and others which have fire doors with 25mm stops are ineffective and don't work correctly.  Hmmm.  Whilst those that have strips and seals are better because they meet the standard of today.  And then if we retrofit strips and seals to older doors by routing out the door or by sticking them on, the door will perform better in a fire situation.

[wee brian]

Building regs havent asked for 25 mm stops since 1985.

Adding smoke seals (if done properly) will improve the smoke tightness of a door in low temperature conditions.

Adding Intumescents may improve the performance of the door in high temp conditions but this is a matter of debate.

[blue-spud]

I know this is an old topic but i am just after a bit of advice as i have just carried out a risk Assessment on one of the building at work and have found that new firedoors have been fitted, to smarten the office area up they have wood effect grain on them, but they have been put into the existing frameset so 25mm stops etc.  I have stated in the assessment that the installation is incorrect as smoke seals and intumescents should be fitted but the maintenance manager and site director say that i am just being picky and if the doors hadn't been changed i would not have highlighted it.

Am i covered if it all goes wrong as its my name on the assessment? :/

[CivvyFSO]

Fire Safety Order... "as much as is reasonably practicable" or something like that

I see nothing wrong with highlighting it, although I wouldn't say it is actually incorrect.

Looking at it from the new "non-prescriptive" approach, the door (if needed to protect the escape route) should be of sufficient construction to allow people the necessary time to escape. That is where the RA comes into play IMO.

[kurnal]

Blue spud, I would look at it this way.
If all things have been done correctly the old door assembly design that you have recentlyremoved would, when installed, have been subject to a fire test  with 25mm rebates.

Presumably the manufacturer of these replacement door leaves has also  subjected them to a fire test- but this will have been with fire and smoke seals fitted. (its normal to test doors and frames as a complete assembly).

The performance of these doors without seals fitted is an unknown quantity- but dont forget the test is a standard test and may not be anything like the real fire conditions that could arise in your office. The test is just a means of comparing one door against another and making sure they all meet a base line minimum performance.

Any instructions come with the door?

You can bet that the manufacturers would not guarantee their product unless the installation is in accordance with their instructions.

Now does it matter? I think it depends where the door is and why it has been specified. If its a door to a staircase or a high risk room, or a long dead end corridor with no smoke detectors in rooms then I would say yes- fit seals.
But if its in a dead end corridor and the building has full smoke detection it probably doesn't matter at all. It may best to stand back and review the whole building fire strategy before making your decision.

In the old days before detection became widely available and reasonably cheap  many buildings were full of fire doors that were a complete nuisance and most of the time were wedged open anyway. With detection it is possible to achieve the same standard of safety with fewer doors  by detecting the fire earlier giving people chance to escape or extinguish it before it becomes a threat.

Finally you need to look at the management. Changes to building safety systems should not be allowed without consulting the Responsible Person appointed under the Fire Safety Order. And if this is the Director or maintenance manager then they clearly need to either take a fire awareness course or appoint a competent person to advise them, before tinkering with the safety of the building occupiers.

[jokar]

The fire test for doors is at 800 degrees.  With early detection and warning all should be out of the building by the time that temperature is reached, dependent on the evacuation strategy of course.  All doors and partitions will perform to some degree in a fire situation and the belt and braces plus a piece of string approach is long gone, well I hope it is.

[PhilB]

Quite so Jokar, I recently looked at a building with the old door stops and no strips or seals. The premises was fitted with a life safety sprinkler system. Would upgrading doors be an improvement?...yes....would it benefit anyones safety?....no.

However I have seen consultants and fire officers recommending similar upgrades. Is this to cover their backsides?...is it incompetence?