Adding to an existing system

[Wiz]

I found the section in Colin Todd's Guide where he talks about doubling the size of a system, but the last paragraph of section 1, scope on page 1 of the BS doesn't mention anything about doubling the size of a System, where exactly does Colin draw his resources from?
or I is right in front of my nose and Im can't see it??

Stuart,

The BS states that you are allowed to extend a non-compliant system but gives no further guidance.

Colin Todd's guide gives an opinion as to where the cut-off point might be, but also states that there is probably 'no right or wrong answer as to the point at which a desicion should be made to install a complete new system'.

It all seems pretty clear to me.

And what is abundantly clear from the above, is that the advice you were given elsewhere, that your only option was to tell the customer that they had to have a complete new system because it did not comply with current standards is flawed.

I would assume that Mr Todd formed his opinion based on his vast experience and knowledge.

If you feel he has no right, or is not sufficiently experienced enough, to form these opinions, you will have to take that up with him. I understand that he is, or has been, a member of this forum.

[Graeme]

Major work-new system
small modifications fine but to new regs.

Insurance asks for a 2002 system=new one

what size of system are we talking about and what needs done?

[stewbow]

Major work-new system
small modifications fine but to new regs.

Insurance asks for a 2002 system=new one

what size of system are we talking about and what needs done?

Typically, a small, mid terraced Victorian hotel / guest house with about 12 bedrooms from basement upto 2nd or 3rd floor capable of taking around 25 guests.
These places at present would have heat detection in the kitchens, dining rooms, and lounges, and smoke detection on alternate landings.
At present, the bedrooms have no detection and low sound pressure levels.

Our local FOs have been saying for tha last couple of years that the 2 things they are most concerned about bringing up to date, (when the RRO comes in) are Fire Doors and Fire Alarm Systems.

Stuart

[Graeme]

simple answer then

If the FO is asking for the system to be brought up to date that means to 2002 standards.

Clarify it with him is your best way to go.

He might of been asking for a system to comply with L2 which only may need a couple of afd but also brought up to date which to me means everything.

[stewbow]

BS 5839 Part 1:2002
46.4.2
b) Before modifying a fire alarm system, care should be taken to ensure that the proposed modifications do not detrimentally affect the compliance of the system with fire safety legislation; where doubts exist there should be consultation with the relevant enforcement authority.



In a building that has over 300 m2 in floor space and at present only has a single detection zone, if you increase, in area, the size of the detection zone (by putting smoke detectors in bedrooms), are you making the system more non-compliant?

[Wiz]

BS 5839 Part 1:2002
46.4.2
b) Before modifying a fire alarm system, care should be taken to ensure that the proposed modifications do not detrimentally affect the compliance of the system with fire safety legislation; where doubts exist there should be consultation with the relevant enforcement authority.



In a building that has over 300 m2 in floor space and at present only has a single detection zone, if you increase, in area, the size of the detection zone (by putting smoke detectors in bedrooms), are you making the system more non-compliant?

Stuart,
The above explanation doesn't mean you can't add to an existing non-compliant system. The reference to fire safety legislation surely doesn't imply it means the BS only, if at all, otherwise the BS would be contradicting itself!!!

Could it not be argued that the existing single zone system already covers the bedroom areas in size, if not detection coverage, and that adding detectors in the bedrooms is not actually increasing the size of the single zone?

I don't think you can ever say something is 'more non-compliant'. Something is either compliant or it isn't!

I'm not saying that your system would not benefit from upgrading. It appears you are even being asked to upgrade it. But you want to tell your customer that he has to renew his existing system and you are looking for BS 5839 part 1 2002 to confirm your views. I'm only saying that you can't tell your customer that  BS 5839 Part 1 2002 doesn't allow you to add equipment to his system just because the existing system is non-compliant. The BS clearly states that you can, and Colin Todd's book provides some guidance on the recommendation, if not a precise definition!

I hope you enjoy your in-depth reading of the BS searching for confirmation of your views. I wish I could tell you what you want to hear, but then I would be giving you mis-information.

If all our numerous opinions above have not helped at all, and you can't find what you are looking for in BS, you will be in the same boat as many of us, and I would like to invite you to join the rest of us here residing at The Home For The Slightly Bewildered!!!!