Radio fire detection and alarm systems for the disabled

[ian_spleen]

David, you can turn any pager off.

What you shouldn't be able to do is accidentally turn the pager off. You're right though, there are a number of reasons why EMS pagers don't comply with 5839 on top of the one I mentioned.

In order to turn an Alerter off, you have to press a recessed button for several seconds. Some pagers require you to press two buttons at once, or something similar.

Sorry - Deaf Aleter DOES monitor the transmitter for failure. Out of range is not a transmitter failure. If the transmitter loses it's power, loses communications with the fire alarm , has it's antennae removed, etc, it will transmit a fault. Out of range is NOT a fault condition.

As regards the DDA, there is no such thing as DDA 'compliance'. The DDA does not mention fire alarms anywhere. It is about equivalent access to goods and services. 5839 describes the functions which are required of a system used for this purpose. If you have deaf users of the fire alarm system then the DDA would require you to give them access to it. 5839 would describe ways of doing so.

Deaf Alerter were supposed to be authoring a British Standard for paging systems. It would seem they haven't got round to finishing it yet. This is one of those PAS standards that can be created in-lieu of a re-write of the main standard. I think it is to be called BS PAS 100, but my memory is little better than my knees.

I think the reason for requiring a radio licence is that paging transmitters of this type tend to be quite high power, as opposed to a EMS or EDA fire alarm panel. The antennae of a paging transmitter is external to the box, unlike a domestic paging system. The licence just buys air time on a dedicated frequency I believe.

Wiz, yes fire alarm companies SHOULD know about radio systems and most (if not all) would do a radio survey for a radio fire alarm. But you'd be amazed how many people think you can just ring up Scope, tell them how big the building is and buy a system to suit.

[David Rooney]

Hello Kurnal...!

The main reasons the EMS pager doesn't comply is because the panel doesn't continuously transmit the alarm message, the transmitter isn't monitored for failure, the pager doesn't react for the required time and the fact you can turn the pager off, and all sorts of techy stuff.

I'ts ok for security guards but not for DDA compliance.

Thanks David
Is there anywhere I can read up on these requirements for DDA compliance- eg for access to buildings we have BS8300, is there something similar for pagers and the like?

To be honest I don't think there is, all refences just go back to 5839 section 18.

Have emailed you a scope compliance statement that might shed a bit more light......

Dave

[Nimrod]

The discussion so far has covered the pros and cons of equipment provided by three companies: EMS, Deaf Alerter, and Scope.

EMS does not meet the needs of DDA though Scope and Deaf Alerter do.

Prompted by the postings I have spent a number of hours on the internet what other pager based systems are available in the UK and could only come up three others.

The product names are:

Lifeline pager from clarioncom.co.uk

DeafSentry pager from mdh-uk.co.uk

DeafWatch pager from wasol.co.uk

It would be interesting to learn the views (and experience) of the forum members about these providers and the level of DDA compliance their products achieve.

As always you help and assitance is much appreciated.

Bob

[ian_spleen]

Hello again Nimrod.

I've already referred to the Clarion product, which is now supplied through Advanced Electronics. It's a reasonable product and equivalent to Deaf Alerter, except it does not allow 'roaming'. Again, if the roaming function is not important (although I'd be surprised if you were referring to a campus of some kind that it wouldn't be), then it is a very good alternative, for less money. Whether Advanced can really support it technically is less certain.

Deaf Sentry is not 5839 compliant. It works on what is called the distress alarm frequency. This does not allow the constant resending of fire signals until the system is reset, which is a contravention of the standard. You'll probably notice that there is no mention of 5839 on their website, so I suppose at least they're honest.

As for Wasol, they don't even have an office. You have to contact them via a mobile number. They have no way of supporting their products and I wouldn't touch them with yours your Honour. If my recollection is correct, they have about 3 employees and sub-contract their installation and servicing. Further more, their kit also works on the distress alarm frequency, but they DO talk about complying with 5839, which speaks volumes for what they know about the standard.

Again, it is very important to understand that there is NO SUCH THING as DDA compliance. Products and systems should comply with 5839. Lifeline does, the others don't.

[David Rooney]

Sorry - Deaf Aleter DOES monitor the transmitter for failure. Out of range is not a transmitter failure. If the transmitter loses it's power, loses communications with the fire alarm , has it's antennae removed, etc, it will transmit a fault. Out of range is NOT a fault condition.

Well before i go and buy shares in deaf alerter......

If it monitors the transmitter for failure, and your standing in a shopping mall doing your roaming thing, how would the pager tell you if any of the transmitters in the local fifteen nearest shops had failed??

[ian_spleen]

Blimey, this one is running and running isn't it?

You would get a fault signal via the fire alarm system which is monitoring the transmitter (although you wouldn't have so many transmitters that close to one another, but irrespective). This would be replicated to the pagers in the transmitter's pattern. Thus, if the transmitter lost it's mains power, communications with the fire alarm, or indeed if the fire alarm panel went into fault of it's own accord, a fault signal would be sent to the pagers.

Note - I do not have shares in Deaf Alerter. I'm just trying to answer the questions as they arise. Honest Guv....

[kurnal]

Ian to the layman this sounds a bit like sending an email to say the internet server has gone down?

[David Rooney]

Blimey, this one is running and running isn't it?

You would get a fault signal via the fire alarm system which is monitoring the transmitter (although you wouldn't have so many transmitters that close to one another, but irrespective). This would be replicated to the pagers in the transmitter's pattern. Thus, if the transmitter lost it's mains power, communications with the fire alarm, or indeed if the fire alarm panel went into fault of it's own accord, a fault signal would be sent to the pagers.

But a fault signal via the fire alarm system is not what the BS calls for....

At the risk of repeating......

18.2.1
f) A failure of the interconnection (e.g. radio transmission) between the transmission equipment and the portable alarm device should be identified at the portable alarm device by a visual and tactile signal within five minutes of the failure. The visual indication should remain until the interconnection is re-constituted or the portable alarm device is switched off. The tactile indication may be cancelled by operation of a manual control, provided that, at intervals not exceeding 15 min, it is then repeated for a duration of at least 0.5 s, unless the portable alarm device is switched off.


so now what your saying is that not every shop in our mall has got a transmitter, and oviously radio signals don't overlap....so when i'm shopping in tescos and their alarm goes off.... i don't need to worry and won't get an alarm on my pager cos my nearest transmitter is in shoemarks up the road and they are fine..... ??

So how do i know (as  a deaf person carrying a pager) to evacuate from the premises I happen to be shopping in, if that shop doesn't have a transmitter.... where is the signal coming from??

Personally I don't know any shopping malls that evacuate completely because one unit has an alarm up, so it can't come from the "House" system.

Either you have a transmitter in each shop unit (deaf alerter's aim for world domination) or not..... in which case, in this scenario, it wouldn't comply and wouldn't work......

[ian_spleen]

You (almost) lost me for a minute there, you cheeky so and so. Of course it would work in the scenario you describe. If you can make the sounders in different areas do different things, then you can make the pagers give different messages, it's just a matter of sending the right signals from the fire alarm to the transmitter.

If you're in a shop and the fire alarm goes off, then you get a message saying 'there's a fire alarm going off in Tesco' (well, not exactly, but words to that effect). In such an environment, the evacuation plan would probably be done through cause and effect, so the pager would tell you which fire alarm system was operating and what to do, same as a voice evacuation system would. More realistically, you would probably get a message saying 'fire alert - wait for further instructions', which would then be overwritten by a general evacuation message if need be, or something similar.

I'm sure you're just trying to be cheeky, but if you insist, I'll repeat myself. If the transmitter goes into fault a fault signal is sent to the pager. If the fire alarm system goes into fault, a fault signal is sent to the pager. Out of range is not a fault either of the transmitter, or the fire alarm system, nor of the 'interconnection' between them or the pager.

[Wiz]

Ian, at the risk of also being called a cheeky so and so, I can see where David is coming from and you have not answered his question.

Tell me how the pager in your scenario is going to receive any message if the transmitter has failed?

My understanding of how an 'out of range' facility works is that the transmitter sends a signal on a pre-determined time basis. If pagers do not receive this signal then they will give a warning. This warning could mean they are out of range of the transmitter or the transmission facility has failed in some way. In all circumstances it would let the pager bearer know they aren't going to receive any signal to their pager - a fire warning or any other warning!

David is confirming that BS recommends:

A failure of the interconnection (e.g. radio transmission) between the transmission equipment and the portable alarm device should be identified at the portable alarm device by a visual and tactile signal within five minutes of the failure.

I think that David has made a reasonable point and your last post did not answer it.

[ian_spleen]

I thought I'd answered it a number of times, I apologise.

Out of range just means that the pager can no longer receive signals from the transmitter because it's too far away, it is not a method of fault monitoring the transmitter. I'm not sure I can make it any clearer than that. If a transmitter loses mains power it works on batteries for a pre-determined period, the same as a fire alarm panel and will send fault signals for the duration. These will be received by the pager. Once the pager is out of range of the transmitter, you should be out of the protected area (i.e the building) so what difference does it make whether you still get fire alarm signals or not?

The scenario David is describing is one wherein if the most local transmitter to you failed, you would be unable to receive a fire alarm signal, which is true only if the transmitter lost contact with the fire alarm system. In the same way, you would get no fire alarm signal if the sounder circuits both fell out of their terminals in the fire alarm panel. You would simply get a fault signal.  

Equally, he seems to be overlooking the fact that, in such a scenario, the fire alarm in a shopping centre would not require lots of transmitters, it would have one or two (as required to cover the extent of the centre) and they would receive cause and effect from the fire alarm system, in the same way a voice alarm system would.

The pagers would replicate the fire alarm evacuation regime, as would speakers or phased sounders. This is done by Deaf Alerter and Clarion through an interface card in each transmitter (i can't speak for Scope, I've never tried).

[Wiz]

Ian, sorry mate but you are still not getting it.

Your explanations assume that there is a failure on the links between the fire alarm system to the transmitter(s). I understand about the possibilities of monitoring such wired links and you don't need to make analogies with monitored fire alarm circuits for me to understand such. But lets make the assumption that the transmitter just fails due to a component failure and is therefore totally unable to transmit.

If you have a pager system with 'out of range' facility then a secondary function of that facility would automatically be a warning (albeit an 'out of range' warning) if the transmision function of the paging system failed for any reason. If the transmitter can't transmit the required timed signal to the pager (for whatever reason) then the pager will assume it is out of range of the transmitter and display a warning.

David is saying the BS recommendation requires warning at the pager of failure of the transmition function so it would seem that the 'out of range' type feature is a necessity to comply with BS.

You also mention systems with multiple transmitters. Any multiple is obviously only required on sites where the signal from one transmitter does not provide sufficient coverage. With the 'out of range' facility if the pager is ever out of range of a transmitter capable of reaching his pager (for what ever reason), the person with the pager will know about it and realise that he can't rely on receiving a warning signal during a fire alarm condition.

[David Rooney]

Thank you Wiz.... I think you put the points across better than I....

Ian

Think we will have to agree to disagree.


The BS wants the Pager to be told if there is a failure of the transmitter.

My understanding is the Alerter does not send a message to the pager if the transmitter fails. Thats a non compliance....

If you have more than one transmitter on a site like a shopping mall (ok lets go for two !) there will be overlap and if one transmitter fails, the pager will not tell the user - but as the Alerter doesn't signal transmission failure this won't happen anyway !

As soon as you put more than one transmitter on a job you run the risk of not picking up a transmitter fail.

Hope thats not being too cheeky..... you little minx.........!!  :cool:

[Graeme]

I found  Deaf Alerter to be way too overpriced compared to others on the market