What would you do in case of...?

[Allen Higginson]

Benz
You clearly will bend over backwards to help a customer resolve a major problem.
By being helpful and inventive you have improved the situation but you have taken the burden of responsibility off the shoulders of the employer and taken it all on yourself.

I salute you- but please be aware of the possible outcome. You have come up with a practical design that will be far from perfect but should do the job ok. If it does work or if there is no fire- great.

If it doesnt work and someone gets hurt or if the building burns down either the coronors court or the civil court will have the benefit of hindsight and will make a judgement over whether your design was good enough. You will have some clever barrister paid thousands of pounds just to win the case for the insurance sompany and whose fee will depend solely on whether he can make you look an idiot in the court, so he will try hard to destroy you.

But if you are easy with that concept then go on and carry on your good work. Just make sure you are absolutely clear that it is a very temorary fix for day or two to overcome a crisis.

 Its very similar to  Dynamic risk assessment carried out by the operational fire service- it can be ok to take a little risk if the potential benefit of doing so is big enough. They usually make the right decision but sometimes it goes wrong and then the hindsight of the enquiry can weigh very heavily on the poor chap at the sharp end.


But in the circumstances I am with you. Other solutions you could have adopted- interlinked smoke alarms have been used in some circumstances for a life risk. The radio linked  detectors lend themselves to this although obviously only designed for domestic situations.

Thanks Kurnal for this advise;

It's indeed for temporary measures only, while waiting to get spares in the next working days..., this is quite similar to closed protocol systems some times, where the loop card fail during a couple of bank holidays and week ends... etc, the loop card usually covers couple of floors or so..., what would be the solution then, there is no magic ways... ?

We had been in similar situation say with Zetler, Securiton, Minerva 80, PSS... etc where the manufacturers either they don't make that spare parts any more, or only their own engineer that can deal with the problem... etc, and in that case patrolling the site 24h may be the only option.

Hi Benz.I'd have to agree trhat while this is an admirable solution to a serious problem and does demonstrate a willingness to go that extra mile for the client,I personally wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.The customer may be happy that the fire alarm system is working to an extent and that you are absolutely brilliant in regards of customer service but,should it fail to operate (even due to reasons beyond your control) then it'll be your butt on the line.
It is up to the customer to make whatever temporary arrangements necessary until you can get the system up and running again (as per how it should be).
Even carrying a spare 8 zone panel isn't enough these days with all the two-wire stuff out there,stuff that your solution won't match up with.
11 out of 10 for customer service but poor marks for protecting yourself.

[Benzerari]

Benz
You clearly will bend over backwards to help a customer resolve a major problem.
By being helpful and inventive you have improved the situation but you have taken the burden of responsibility off the shoulders of the employer and taken it all on yourself.

I salute you- but please be aware of the possible outcome. You have come up with a practical design that will be far from perfect but should do the job ok. If it does work or if there is no fire- great.

If it doesnt work and someone gets hurt or if the building burns down either the coronors court or the civil court will have the benefit of hindsight and will make a judgement over whether your design was good enough. You will have some clever barrister paid thousands of pounds just to win the case for the insurance sompany and whose fee will depend solely on whether he can make you look an idiot in the court, so he will try hard to destroy you.

But if you are easy with that concept then go on and carry on your good work. Just make sure you are absolutely clear that it is a very temorary fix for day or two to overcome a crisis.

 Its very similar to  Dynamic risk assessment carried out by the operational fire service- it can be ok to take a little risk if the potential benefit of doing so is big enough. They usually make the right decision but sometimes it goes wrong and then the hindsight of the enquiry can weigh very heavily on the poor chap at the sharp end.


But in the circumstances I am with you. Other solutions you could have adopted- interlinked smoke alarms have been used in some circumstances for a life risk. The radio linked  detectors lend themselves to this although obviously only designed for domestic situations.

Thanks Kurnal for this advise;

It's indeed for temporary measures only, while waiting to get spares in the next working days..., this is quite similar to closed protocol systems some times, where the loop card fail during a couple of bank holidays and week ends... etc, the loop card usually covers couple of floors or so..., what would be the solution then, there is no magic ways... ?

We had been in similar situation say with Zetler, Securiton, Minerva 80, PSS... etc where the manufacturers either they don't make that spare parts any more, or only their own engineer that can deal with the problem... etc, and in that case patrolling the site 24h may be the only option.

Hi Benz.I'd have to agree trhat while this is an admirable solution to a serious problem and does demonstrate a willingness to go that extra mile for the client,I personally wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.The customer may be happy that the fire alarm system is working to an extent and that you are absolutely brilliant in regards of customer service but,should it fail to operate (even due to reasons beyond your control) then it'll be your butt on the line.
It is up to the customer to make whatever temporary arrangements necessary until you can get the system up and running again (as per how it should be).
Even carrying a spare 8 zone panel isn't enough these days with all the two-wire stuff out there,stuff that your solution won't match up with.
11 out of 10 for customer service but poor marks for protecting yourself.

Thanks Buzz that's what Kurnal and other people else where said, however I agree it's better to apply only what is recommended, for legal matters... etc

[GregC]

To answer your original question I would advise the site to put in a safety watch and quote on a replacement in line with their particular contract.

In an age of ambulance chasers its no longer advisable to carry out a temporary repair, imagine if you did thinking it would only be for a long weekend and then the customer refused your quote and left the temp repair in for a few weeks/months and it failed when needed, your paperwork may not save you in front of the judge.

Where possible we try to standardise what system we use but still have several that are one offs and to carry spare for all would be cost prohibitive.

@ Thomasbrookes..10-15 panels a month, havent you heard theres no money about these days......

[Allen Higginson]

I have had this happen in a sheltered scheme where the system completly failed and the customer wanted three quotes to put it right. They asked me to install standard battery detectors in the corridors as a temporary measure.
Although I pointed out until I was blue in the face of the "problems" of doing this they insisted that if we didn't want the business then someone else will.
So I supplied and fitted them but made sure that the report sheet was backed up with a letter addressed personally to the housing manager,in which I pointed out that they had no functioning fire alarm system (no way of raising a general alarm throughout the building,no brigade call out etc.) and that the installation of battery detectors was against our advice and was solely at the request of this particular person.
Wasn't too pleased I may say!

[Benzerari]

I have had this happen in a sheltered scheme where the system completly failed and the customer wanted three quotes to put it right. They asked me to install standard battery detectors in the corridors as a temporary measure.
Although I pointed out until I was blue in the face of the "problems" of doing this they insisted that if we didn't want the business then someone else will.
So I supplied and fitted them but made sure that the report sheet was backed up with a letter addressed personally to the housing manager,in which I pointed out that they had no functioning fire alarm system (no way of raising a general alarm throughout the building,no brigade call out etc.) and that the installation of battery detectors was against our advice and was solely at the request of this particular person.
Wasn't too pleased I may say!

Well done Buzz, I will copy you next time I get in the same situations :lol:

Some one once said: 'let his mum cry, not mine though'