Author Topic: BB100 schools guide  (Read 73184 times)

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2006, 12:04:09 AM »
I take it that BB100 'compliance' will be viewed as one way of meeting the applicable parts of the Building Regs - as are the Approved Documents.

It will be interesting if a fire authority decides to take action under the RR(FS)O on aspects of construction or design that have achieved approval through Building Control/Approved Inspector with fire authority consultation.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2006, 08:47:33 AM »
The essence will be that the design has failed to take account of the way the building is used once it becomes occupied.

Important because some PFI  design and build projects involve minimal consultation with the final end user. They can also involve trade offs being agreed between the Approved Building Inspector ( employed by the builder so under severe pressure) the Architect ( Also employed by the builder) and the Builder (No vested interests there then!) without the final client being made aware until occupation.

Offline val

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2006, 10:44:54 AM »
Ken,
The FRS may have 'been consulted' but fundamentally disagreed with the proposal. As the developer can lawfully ignore the views of the the FRS and get/provide a completion certificate, the FRS then puts them on warning that, on occupation, and following careful consideration of their FRA, (when they get to see it), they feel there may be some areas that the occupier will struggle to demonstrate compliance with the FSO.
If that seems mealy mouthed it is the only path open to FRS to avoid the future defence that the developer/occupier wasn't aware of any concerns. I believe the developer, (building control inspector/AI) is duty bound to pass on these concerns to the occupier.

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #78 on: November 21, 2006, 12:36:15 AM »
I know exactly what you mean, Kurnal - having been involved with such parties with regard to new-build in the Education Sector. Approved Inspectors can also be very distant (geographically) and certificates have been known to be issued before completion or with omissions on site. Both yours and Val's points highlight a need for the occupiers to be made aware of fire service concerns regarding building design at the earliest opportunity. Direct information would seem more useful rather than relying upon Inspectors, Architects, Principal Contractors, etc, conveying a FS view that will appear contrary to, or even critical of, their own - but is this achievable?

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #79 on: November 21, 2006, 07:55:07 AM »
Val
You are exactly right that the important information must be passed on to the end user and the vehicle is the H&S manual produced under the CDM Regs and which should be formally handed over by the Planning Supervisor.
Trouble is it doesnt seem to work very well in practical terms. These "manuals" tend to comprise many lever arch files full of photocopies of manufacturers information on everything from the toilet door knobs to the HAV plant and if the fire strategy is in there at all its overwhelmed by the weight of other information.

I was present at one so called handover recently - a very harrassed facilities manager just in the middle of moving into the new building and overwhelmed by operational problems was presented with and asked to sign for 8 boxes of files. They are still in the boxes.

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #80 on: November 21, 2006, 01:45:27 PM »
Key proposal in the review of Part B was to require desing info on fire safety to be handed on to the new occupier.

The CDM regs are not really the right vehicle for this as they are aimed at the protection of people working on the building not in it.

Saying that the CDM regs are being amended next year.

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #81 on: November 21, 2006, 09:00:09 PM »
Only 8 boxes, Kurnal! I've seen over 20 (in fact 2 sets of over 20) in the Health and Safety 'File' - and then with some essential papers missing when checked (by me!).

There is an element of safety provision for the end user in the CDM Regs, Wee B in as much as there is a duty to design for the safe future cleaning and maintenance of the building and to provide this information in the H&S File - but despite this, you still find architects and others giving less than enthusiastic attention to this aspect of design by, say, giving more importance to appearance and style than to ease of access for cleaning windows and gutters, or servicing roof plant.

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #82 on: November 21, 2006, 10:11:20 PM »
The CDM regs and the H&S file are about the safety of builders, maintenance staff, window cleaners etc. Not the users of the building.

Check out Reg 14

....information relating to the project which it is reasonably foreseeable will be necessary to ensure the health and safety of any person at work who is carrying out or will carry out construction work or cleaning work in or on the structure or of any person who may be affected by the work of such a person at work;

Take a look at HSE's note on the subject  http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/cis44.pdf

And also consider that they made a big thing about proposing to extend the scope of the regs to cover the users of the building in the new CDM regs due out next year. I dont think they would do that if it already was covered.

Ok so the regs do try and stop window cleaners falling on the users from a great height but, in essence,(until they are changed) The H&S file isn't there for passing on information on general fire precautions.

Hopefully this will be put right in iether the new Part B, the revised CDM regs or Both.

Offline val

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 234
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2006, 10:58:00 PM »
I think, though I don't have a copy of the procedural guidance at home (shame on me!), that comments from FRS at the consultation process at Building Regs stage HAVE to be passed onto the end user. This is where FRS are coming from. If the FRS formally put the AI (or whatever) on notice, they are duty bound to pass these concerns on. Failure to do so would potentially leave them liable if the FRS then demand retro fitting of life safety sprinklers, external escapes or prohibit the top three floors, etc to make the premises usable.

Offline wee brian

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2424
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #84 on: November 22, 2006, 11:08:56 AM »
The guide is non stat so its just good practice.

Of course If I were a client and my AI didnt warn me of impending grief from the fire service I dont think I would employ him again.

Offline Ken Taylor

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 414
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #85 on: November 23, 2006, 11:43:00 PM »
By provision for the end user, Wee B, you will see that I am referring to cleaning and maintenance - in as much as the end user will be responsible for ordering cleaning and maintenance or using his/her own employees for that purpose. In schools this will usually involve caretakers, engineers and the like.

The fire safety provision requirement is for those constructing the building - although there may be a connection with the end user during the construction phase where the CDM work is within an occupied building or will otherwise affect the end user's fire safety arrangements (eg with an extension to an occupied building).

Beyond the CDM Regs (but in construction work to which those Regs apply), the contractual duties of designers, architects, principal contractors, etc remain to provide a finished product that meets the client's requirements whilst satisfying Building Regs, etc and once occupied by an employer, the RRO and various Regs under the HASAW Act come into play - so it is particularly important for a client who is not the end user to order a building that will be adequate for the end user in those respects. This can be where many problems arise where the end user is not involved in the preparation of the specifications or is left out of consultations between the client and others. Design and Build can be a real problem in this respect. It will be interesting to see how the new Co-ordinator's role will work out in practice - as compared with that of the existing Planning Supervisor.

Offline Steve Brisbane

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
BB100 schools guide
« Reply #86 on: November 30, 2006, 08:23:44 AM »
Hi!!!!!
The fire guide offers helpful advice that can save lives! Thank you for this!!!!


Fit 4 Europe!