BB100 schools guide

[Chris Houston]

the highly unlikely event of them having to enter a burning school for rescue purposes.

Given the rising trend of daytime arson attacks, are you sure this is highly unlikely?

[Tom Sutton]

Chris I have been to many daytime fires in schools both accidental and deliberate and they have never caused any major problems. The ones at night,that was allowed to develope,are the ones that cause the problems.

[Chris Houston]

Chris I have been to many daytime fires in schools both accidental and deliberate and they have never caused any major problems. The ones at night,that was allowed to develope,are the ones that cause the problems.

Many of the UK schools were built when schools were exempt from building regulations and therefore have no structural fire protection or ceiling void compartmentation.  Schools, because of the richness brought to society from them and because they have our children in them are perhaps the most important buildings in the UK.

For both these reasons, I consider every school fire to be a major problem.

I cannot name names, but it was not very long ago where we had pupils crawling out under smoke and people in hospital with smoke inhallation in an English school.

[Owen66]

This may seem like a stupid question however:

As I understand the current situation the proposed BB100 is intended to cover schools within the age range of 3 to 16 years.

The draft revisions to AD-B now define a school as serving an age range of 2 to 19 years and clearly then stop dealing with schools and refer the user to BB100.

Would it be correct to deduce that schools (colleges) serving the 16 to 19 year age range fall somewhat between stools in terms of fire guidance - or have I got the wrong end of the stick completely.

Owen

[Tom Sutton]

Chris I agree with some of the things you say but I feel you over state your case and we must agree to disagree.

[Chris Houston]

Chris I agree with some of the things you say but I feel you over state your case and we must agree to disagree.

No problem, the great thing about FireNet is the range of opinions from the different people.

[wee brian]

Owen its what they call a cock-up. Did you respond to the consultations and tell them?

[val]

2 -19, 3-16??

Only the truely great guidance documents, soon to be released on to the education world cover everyone from creche to post grads!
However, as they only provide guidance and not even the tiniest bit of 'standards' this is quite easy. Roll on prescription...I give it three years

[Jon Barrett]

Hi,

I had a look at this document a while back whilst investigating the need for sprinklers in schools when involved with a project in the Isle of Man.

The issue arose because building control had written an addition to the UK Part B - B7 that states that schools should be sprinklered, but for life safety reasons.

When we investigated this in terms of the fire statistics, probabilities, number of injuries etc. we found schools to be some of the safest places to be in terms of 'life safety'. Obviously, the benefits in terms of property protection and continuity of service are clear for the mainland. However, on the Isle of Man arson is nowhere near the problem it is over here.

One aspect that concerned me a little was that the BB100 was advovating trade-offs if a sprinkler system was to be provided.

In ADB trade-offs, i.e. increased escape distances and compartments etc, can only be achieved if the sprinkler system satisfies the 'life safety' requirements of the LPC rules. In BB100, and all other guides on school sprinklers, there is no mention of this requirement.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jon Barrett MIFireE

[Chris Houston]

Hi,

I had a look at this document a while back whilst investigating the need for sprinklers in schools when involved with a project in the Isle of Man.

The issue arose because building control had written an addition to the UK Part B - B7 that states that schools should be sprinklered, but for life safety reasons.

When we investigated this in terms of the fire statistics, probabilities, number of injuries etc. we found schools to be some of the safest places to be in terms of 'life safety'. Obviously, the benefits in terms of property protection and continuity of service are clear for the mainland. However, on the Isle of Man arson is nowhere near the problem it is over here.

One aspect that concerned me a little was that the BB100 was advovating trade-offs if a sprinkler system was to be provided.

In ADB trade-offs, i.e. increased escape distances and compartments etc, can only be achieved if the sprinkler system satisfies the 'life safety' requirements of the LPC rules. In BB100, and all other guides on school sprinklers, there is no mention of this requirement.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Regards,

Jon Barrett MIFireE

As far as I can tell, the UK is quite unique in terms of the arson problem, it is quite plausable that the Isle of Man does not have the same problems.  Obvioulsy, it's difficult to comment on your analysis without knowing more, but it would only take one fire in a school with open ceiling voids etc for there to be a catastrophy in the true meaning of the word and it is then that people will be unhappy to hear that noone was worried because "no one had died recently".

[Jon Barrett]

Chris, thanks for your response.

Obviously in an ideal world all buildings would be sprinklered.

Interestingly it was reported recently in the IFE journal, when discussing the pros/cons on resi sprinklers, that the figure that is normally used for cost/benefit analysis, in terms of lives saved, is in the region of £1.25m per life saved! This would probably horrify the public that a cost is actually put on lives but that is the reality and it applies to all aspects of life. There is always a cut-off point. So for schools, even with the large arson problem, installing sprinklers purely for life safety reasons could not be justified.

What seemed ludicrous to me was that the Isle of Man should be looking to put sprinklers in schools (but not Hotels or Offices - where the probabilities of death are far higher from statistics) but they have areas of the island where people regularly die on the roads due to the derestricted speed limits!

Our investigations led us to conclude that the current requirements within ADB 'adequately' protect life in schools without the need to install sprinklers. We recommended to the owners that they consider protection for property/continuity protection reasons but interestingly the payback that can be made on the mainland due to reduced insurance premiums is not viable on the IOM due to them having no real arson problems.

[Ken Taylor]

I would rather see sprinklers as an enhancement to fire safety than a reason to reduce other more permanent measures such as travel or direct distances. With break-ins, vandalism and maintenance issues in some schools, will the system be operational when the fire occurs?

[Chris Houston]

I would rather see sprinklers as an enhancement to fire safety than a reason to reduce other more permanent measures such as travel or direct distances. With break-ins, vandalism and maintenance issues in some schools, will the system be operational when the fire occurs?

About 400 schools in the UK have full spriknler system.   Two of them would be gone without them, but there has yet to be any that have failed to operate.

Recessed sprinkler heads and strict controls from the local authority risk management department, backed up by the property insurers would avoid such circumstances.

I do agree that although it is possible to logicaly reduce other means of protection, it would be ideal not to.  That said, I have seen more holes through fire break walls than I have impaired sprinkler systems.

[davio1960]

Hi
I don't often comment on these pages but following a fire in my daughters school last evening I thought I'd let you all know the benefits of having emergency lighting through out any school.
The fire involved the main electrical intake, sub circuits and consumer units within the electrical intake cupboard.
All the power failed throughout the school and the emergency lighting did what they were installed for. After a few moments the urgency of evacuation increased when the fire alarm finally kicked in. The fire service performed there tasks and extinguished the fire, successfully preventing any further damage to the school.
In nearly every building and on most of the floors adults and children were carrying out after school activities. My daughter and son were at judo in one of the many halls. The evacuation was 100% successful and many worried and distressed people went to their own homes safely.

The news reports indicate a great part of the school will need rewiring so the kids are off for a few days.

All I can say is thank god for the person who made the decision to ensure emergency lighting was installed through out the school. If your reading this message my heartfelt thanks.

davio1960

[messy]

I would rather see sprinklers as an enhancement to fire safety than a reason to reduce other more permanent measures such as travel or direct distances. With break-ins, vandalism and maintenance issues in some schools, will the system be operational when the fire occurs?

I tend to agree.

Many of the new flagship PFI academies (or Trust Schools or whatever they're called this week) seem to compete with each other for the most contemporary design or architectural 'wow factor' to impress parents/stakeholders.

Many now have huge atria and other features rarely seen in Schools in the past. Some appear to rely heavily on engineered solutions, many of which may be vulnerable to vandalism. Architects see educational buildings as a key asset in their portfolio.

So will sprinklers be used to protect life and/or provide increased protection for the building? Perhaps.

But my guess is that sprinklers will mainly be used to allow huge trade offs to permit buildings which will bump up the profile of failing Schools/Ed Authorities by young up-and-coming architects, keen on achieving awards (and maybe a peerage).

And with regards to whther EL is required in Schools?: I vote yes. Virtually all secondary Schools have after School activities - Some regular -such as clubs which Davio mentions, or occasional uses, such as plays + award evenings with huge audiences.
The idea that they are occupied only between 9 and 3 is a little outdated