Author Topic: Occupancy in a licenced premises  (Read 11202 times)

Offline Ken Taylor

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2007, 04:37:01 PM »
Yes, but are they being inspected/audited by the FRS? Some will be in premises not previously licensed so the RP will not be aware of a FRS imposed occupancy level. Presumaby EHOs aren't quoting such levels - so it's down to the RP again in relation to levels for fire safety, public order, adequate room for whatever's taking place, sufficient air-change, etc. Just doesn't give me a lot of confidence when there's no early professional direction.

Offline val

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2007, 05:29:40 PM »
Ken,
The fire service isn't even informed about temporary event notices. I acknowledge your concerns but it really is an inevitable step along the road of self compliance. The RP REALLY is now responsible for the risk and although occupancy figures can be a bit tricky they must, one way or another, calculate how many people it is safe to have in their premises.

WB

I understood that LA cannot set conditions themselves, only police those that are offered by the RP or demanded by one of the responsible bodies, eg. the police fire authority, HSE or an interested party. If these conditions are accepted by the licensee (RP) or imposed on the premises license by the Licensing Committee then they become mandatory.

Offline Ken Taylor

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2007, 06:34:38 PM »
As I suspected with regard to the temporary events, Val.

So you are saying that the Licensing Committee may only set licensing conditions with regard to occupancy if demanded by certain others and not as proposed by the EHO. Isn't part of the need for licensing to ensure that events are carried out and premises conducted in accordance with conditions considered by the licensor as being necessary? Others here seem to be of a slightly different opinion - so this seems to be another uncertain aspect of RRO that needs clarification.

Offline val

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2007, 06:56:22 PM »
Ken,

I think so. If the HSE want to set occupancy figures for, say overcrowding reasons then they can.

But for the Fire Service to demand a maximum occupancy on a license would be pointless because Articles 42 and 43 of the RRO would then make these conditions of a license unenforceable. So we would be imposing a condition on a license which is not enforceable by the Licensing Authority. I think this is effectively ultra vires.

One of the licensing conditions, indeed the only one that is of real concern to the Fire Service, is public safety and it is for the RP to demonstrate that they have achieved this. If they offer a maximum occupancy figure, and many will not, then that is how they can demonstrate compliance. If the Fire Service thinks it is wrong, (too high) they can take action under the RRO or exceptionally by asking for a review of the License.

Simple!!

Offline Ken Taylor

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2007, 11:59:59 PM »
- but what prevents the EHO or other relevant local authority officer from proposing an occupancy figure to the licensing committee and them accepting it?

Offline val

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2007, 06:33:48 AM »
The only normal reason for setting a maximum occupancy figure is for fire safety purposes, (except for the HSE approach above). Therefore, if say an EHO prescribed an occupancy figure, the license holder would be able to argue that this should be dealt with under the RRO and couldn't form part of the license conditions.
Catch 22.

Not saying I particularly like any of this...just my interpretation of the law

Offline kurnal

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2007, 06:49:43 AM »
Toilet provision was always a consideration for PELs under the old regime and this was the remit of the EHO.

Offline wee brian

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2007, 11:55:23 AM »
Toilets, crowd safety, ventilation, noise etc etc etc. There's a whole bunch of reasons why the Licensing Authority could impose a condition.

I expect it depends where you are as to the expertise of the Licensing Officers.

Fire safety isn't always the limiting factor.

Offline val

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2007, 04:58:01 PM »
WB, I'm not sure we're discusing the same point but guidance issued under Section 182 of the Licensing Act says;

WHERE NO REPRESENTATIONS
ARE MADE
9.2 A hearing is not required where an application
has been lawfully made and no responsible
authority or interested party has made a
representation. In these cases, the licensing
authority must grant the application in the
terms sought, subject only to conditions which
are consistent with the operating schedule
and relevant mandatory conditions in the Act.

IMPOSED CONDITIONS
10.11 The licensing authority may not impose any
conditions unless its discretion has been
engaged following receipt of relevant
representations and it has been satisfied at a
hearing of the necessity to impose conditions.
It may then only impose conditions that are
necessary to promote one or more of the four
licensing objectives.

10.12 It is perfectly possible that in certain cases,
because the test is one of necessity, where
there are other legislative provisions which are
relevant and must be observed by the
applicant, no additional conditions at all are
needed to promote the licensing objectives.

Therefore the LA itself acts more of a gatekeeper and imposes conditions on an operating schedule only on recieipt of representations from responsible authorities. (Some of these may, of course be in the next office, e.g. EHO's and noise)

Offline Ken Taylor

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Occupancy in a licenced premises
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2007, 06:30:04 PM »
That's how I understood it, Val and, having served (some years ago) in an EH Dept considered an EHO to be an official representative of a responsible authority who could make the necessary representations.

I must admit to having endeavoured to consider fire safety as well as other guidance relating to occupancy (including public order) and applied whichever were the more demanding standards . This approach was also taken for numerous events held in the local authority's premises whenever the activity was not licensable but required permission to take place. I wonder to what extent such events are being addressed in that way now - particularly if FRSs are not being informed or, perhaps, are not able to respond by taking the view that it's simply down to the RP and the local authority are taking a similar approach?

I recognise the RRO intention to establish a clear responsibility upon RPs but, when it comes to public events, in my experience, you are often dealing with well-meaning amateurs, political activists, local residents, evangelists, actors, youth leaders, etc, etc with little, if any, technical knowledge of fire and other aspects of health and safety and who are quite taken up with the content of the event rather than its potential consequences. I've spent many an 'opening night' arranging chairs and getting them tied together, sending people off to get fire extinguishers and telling them where to put them, getting electric and other cables re-routed, etc, etc. This may well 'go against the grain' of today's thinking  but somehow the thought of what might happen otherwise was of greater concern. I know they ought to go and get guidance from competent persons but will they? and, if not, laying the blame at their door will do little for the injured or families of the dead.