Occupancy in a licenced premises

[Bill G]

Who does the calculation and does it go on the premises licence  - the FA or the RP ?

[wee brian]

The RP

The premises licence can limit the occupancy but not in relation to fire safety.

[black arts]

The answer to the question must be the Licensing Authority, it maybe the Fire Service

[AnthonyB]

In the past licensing could do calculations and impose all sorts of various requirements ( a common one in one LA's area was to insist on weekly logged EL tests as oppose to the traditional monthly) My understanding was that now it has nothing to do with licensing where purely related to fire safety as the current licensing laws restrict requirements to 'compliance with the RRO' which means it's up to the RP.

The Fire Service would only get involved after an incident, complaint or as part of a risk based inspection programme.

Of course capacity calculations can be relevant to general safety as well as fire situations so there may be a way there for LAs to place restrictions after doing calculations.

[Ken Taylor]

If it's a term of the licence it's the licensing authority.

[val]

The principle behind the FSO in this area is :- if the matter can be dealt with under the FSO then no condition can be attached to a license. This is the case with the Licensing Act, Care standards, ofsted and mostly the Housing Act. (There is scope for confusion I admit).
In the case of numbers for an 'alcohol' license, the RP should calculate the safe occupancy, (which may vary depending on staffing, nmber of exits available, number of floors in use, etc. The Licensing Authority has no powers to set ANY conditions, (apart from a few transitional/grandfather rights). All they can do is accept what the RP/applicant offers them unless one of the 'safety bodies' such as HSE, police or FA, request a condition be attached to a license. The FA do not do this very often because they can control all fire safety matters through the FSO.
This only works, of course, if the FA has the inspectors to check up on the licensed premises or the LA inspectors pass complaints back to them.
Wee B is right.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Who does the calculation and does it go on the premises licence  - the FA or the RP ?

The RP does the calculation through the FRA and no it doesn’t go on the licence.

Most licensing applications from licensing solicitors have the minimum possible within the licensing objectives. When I asked why they don’t put more information in I was told that it may end up as a condition of the licence.

Subsequently if they wished to change anything they would have to vary the licence which would cost money.    

Val, I agree that the principle behind the FSO in this area is: - if the matter can be dealt with under the FSO then no condition can be attached to a licence. But licensing committees are becoming under increasing pressure to impose conditions, mainly from the police who then in turn try to use the fire service to enforce.

At a recent licensing hearing I was requested to read out my notification of deficiencies to the hearing who then refused the licence because of it. I thought I was dealing with it under my own legislation.

[Ken Taylor]

Are we saying that a licensing authority may not include conditions as to occupancy when for reasons other than fire safety?!

[wee brian]

No mate

The licensing authority can make whatever conditions it sees fit (within reason). except in relation to fire safety.

[Ken Taylor]

Just as I understood, Wee B. I was concerned that this might have been an interpretation from some of the earlier responses.

On the wider issue, there does seem to be a potential problem here with RPs getting it wrong and FRAs not being involved in calculations or attending prior to the incident - but that's the RRO for you I suppose.

[wee brian]

Not really - Licensed prems are high on the list for auditing so its gonna get checked at some stage. Existing prems already know what their limits are and new ones will do the sums for building regs.

[Bill G]

Many thanks for the comments so far - Ken Taylor comment is preciously the one that is now causing us a problem - From a day to day enforcement of licensed premises we have worked in partnership with the Police and Environmental Health and they have tipped us off to problems etc. They it would appear now have no quantification of an occupancy figure to rely upon when they inspect. It is not on the licence and they have resorted to a rule of thumb approach. We have had cases where they have determined the occupancy on the number of stewards i.e. 75 people per steward -if you have 4 doormen then you can have 300 people on the premises – even if the public safety occupancy is, say 150 . Can we rely on the RP to calculate the occupancy (would they know how to !).It does appear we are slowly going down a slippery slop where overcrowding and the problem associated could come back to haunt us in future.

[wee brian]

The EHO needs to get his act together. They have been hiding behind FPOs for too long.

[Ken Taylor]

Unfortunately, while people are getting their act together (or posibly not) the lives of occupants may be at risk from the consequences of overcrowding - and not just in terms of fire safety.

What is the situation now with regard to occasional licensable events, Temporary Events Notices, etc in this respect?

[wee brian]

All the same - the law is simple now. The job is just as hard mind you.