Your opinions please - fire alarm system offline

[Steven N]

There comes a point where you run out of options . I think you have to back your professional judgement, if the system isnt working and nobody is going to come and manage the problem then really your left with an Article 31. An interesting point you mentioned was single point detectors I've heard this mentioned elsewhere but my issue there is audibility and inter-linking.
Still I like these real world problems you throw in(particularly the Friday afternoon bit), always good to chew over.

[Midland Retty]

Cheers Steve

On the point of single point detectors, I would only accept this in premises two storeys in height (i.e; ground and first ) where there are escape windows (max 4.5 m high etc )

[Dinnertime Dave]

Lancs it may not be an enforcement notice the fire authority issues, if it is a sleeping risk you will probably find prohibition notices will be issued in the first instance

Not in my experience they don't - especially if there are residents already in there.  Have a look at the CFOA Register for HMO's, you'll see it's littered with enforcement notices citing section 13.  (Granted some may refer to extinguishers but I find it's usually alarm issues they come unstuck on of the two.)

Sorry to disagree lancs but I would be looking at Prohibition and have done it following a consultation with the housing officer to rehouse. All the prohibitions have been for faulty or lack of fire warning system but all have been three storey or no possible window escape.

Conversely, I have also worked with the landlord to get single point detectors put in as a temporary measure where window escape is possible.   

[Clevelandfire 3]

and Lancs that register of enforcement notices may have followed issue of prohibition notices

[Steven N]

Sorry to disagree lancs but I would be looking at Prohibition and have done it following a consultation with the housing officer to rehouse.
I dont wish to sound cynical , but finding one on a Friday afternoon  Other than that yes good shout

[kurnal]

These jobs ALWAYS arise on a Friday afternoon. thats a fact.  When it comes to prohibitions every case is different and needs to be considered on its own merits. Of course the very people we are trying to protect by tipping them out of their home tend not to be very chuffed about it either. Often they would rather stay and face the risk than go and sleep in a grimy B&B hotel - often with dodgy fire precautions itself.....

[lancsfirepro]

and Lancs that register of enforcement notices may have followed issue of prohibition notices

I do lots of assessments for residential properties and such and plenty follow enforcement notices.  Maybe your local fire service are a bit keener but in my neck of the woods I'm not seeing it.

Here's one for you.  A client manages a block of purpose built flats and had me do the FRA.  Had no policy, no alarm system (other than 9v smokes in the stairwell and PT 6 in the flats), no fire doors at flat entrances.  I raised the fire door, fire policy and communal alarm issues in the FRA and then the fun started with the flat owners with regard to their front doors.  Half changed them to fire doors, the other half didn't.  According to my client, the local FRS said that they would not prosecute the owners for not replacing their doors but has given them until around Summertime 2013 to get them changed (12 months from the FRA).  I pointed out to my client that they should be operating a stay put policy but need the doors to be fire rated to facilitate that and she said that the FRS had suggested that the flats with fire doors could operate a stay put policy and the ones without could have an evacuation policy!  I nearly choked on my tea.  I pointed out that if they have an evacuation policy then they'd need the fire alarm system to facilitate that which they don't have, and they still need fire doors but in no way can you have two differing fire policies.  I suggested she get that in writing.  Don't forget.... they walk amongst us!

[Dinnertime Dave]

Lancs, I might have a few worries about the lack of FR doors to the flats but there shoudn`t be a need for a communual alarm.

Most brigades would say that it isn`t in the public interest to give notices to individual flat owners. Where I have come across the removal of self closers, I worked with the landlord and held residents meetings and explained the situation, why the S/C were needed and told them what powers I had. most did it traight away, some moaned but did the work. It took 4 or 5 visits over a two year period to sort it out.

As the risk assessor all you can do is document it to protect yourself. 
 

[lancsfirepro]

Lancs, I might have a few worries about the lack of FR doors to the flats but there shoudn`t be a need for a communual alarm.

Indeed, that's why I put it in the assessment to remove them.

Most brigades would say that it isn`t in the public interest to give notices to individual flat owners.

When the actions (or lack of actions) of a flat owner affect the safety of their neighbours then the brigades need to get on the case, otherwise, what's the point?

Why the name "dinnertime Dave"?  Out of interest? 

[Clevelandfire 3]

Lancs are you talking about hmos or purpose built flats when it comes to prohibition cos they are very different animals

[Clevelandfire 3]

These jobs ALWAYS arise on a Friday afternoon. thats a fact.  When it comes to prohibitions every case is different and needs to be considered on its own merits. Of course the very people we are trying to protect by tipping them out of their home tend not to be very chuffed about it either. Often they would rather stay and face the risk than go and sleep in a grimy B&B hotel - often with dodgy fire precautions itself.....

true very true. and often you could be tipping them out to somewhere even more dangerous or even out on the street. believe me the decision to prohibit is never taken lightly ever.

[lancsfirepro]

Lancs are you talking about hmos or purpose built flats when it comes to prohibition

The question was raised about a HMO.

cos they are very different animals

I agree.

[lancsfirepro]

Can think of several off the top of my head where we're talking about 3 storey HMO that were not fitted with an alarm system, had a fire officer visit who issued an enforcement notice which detailed fitting an alarm.  No mention of a prohibition notice.

In fact I've just checked my records and I have a copy of one enforcement notice issued to an HMO last year.  The notice details "No fire alarm system that provides warning of fire throughout the building to all residents.  Including no interlinked detection on the communal areas and behind all doors that open directly on to the communal means of escape."  They had approximately 5 weeks from receiving the notice to comply (or provide a summary of proposed changes) and were also given a 5 week extension following that.  So apply the concern of an alarm system being offline for a night seems a little pale in comparison.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Why the name "dinnertime Dave"?  Out of interest? 

When I joined the forum my brigade internet security settings would only allow me access to the forum at dinnertime. simple Oh and my name is dave!!

That situation changed and our policies now prevent me from posting at anytime whilst at work. so perhaps I should change it to "Onlyathome dave"

Shame really as I think the forum should be tool to let all people involved in the fire industry including I/O give their views. 

[Steven N]

Why the name "dinnertime Dave"?  Out of interest? 

When I joined the forum my brigade internet security settings would only allow me access to the forum at dinnertime. simple Oh and my name is dave!!

That situation changed and our policies now prevent me from posting at anytime whilst at work. so perhaps I should change it to "Onlyathome dave"

Shame really as I think the forum should be tool to let all people involved in the fire industry including I/O give their views. 

Simples really & I agree its a useful debating tool for all parties