Author Topic: Rank to role insignia (Read 17009 times)

Tom Sutton · « **on:** April 01, 2006, 10:54:37 AM »

I am now retired and the changes that is happening in the service is bewildering but because I run a fire safety website using operational matters as a draw I need to keep reasonably up to date using the internet. Fire safety is fine but operational is a nightmare.

My questions.

(a)What will be the insignia for each of the roles as compared with the old rank system? Is there an abbreviation for each role?

(b) Why could they not have kept the rank and role system and modified it. (Role - Divisional Commander/ Rank - Senior Division Officer)

(c) A Station Manager who runs a one pump stn will he be on the same money as one who runs a multi pump stn (e.g. 3 pumps ET HLL HP)
e.g. Role - Station Manager / Rank StnO or ADO depending on responsibility.

fireftrm · « **Reply #1 on:** April 01, 2006, 12:38:56 PM »

a)
Firefighter (Ff)- Yellow helemt no markings
Crew Manager (CM)- Yellow helmet 2x 12.5 mm black bands with 12.5mm separation 2 x 12.5mm silver bars
Watch Manager (WM) - White helmet 1 x 12.5mm black band and black comb 2 x Large impellers
Station Manager (SM) - White helmet 1 x 19mm black band and black comb 3 x Large impellers
Group Manager (GM) - White helmet 1 x 19mm with 12.5mm black band, 12.5mm separation and black comb 1 x Large impeller in laurel wreath
Area Manager (AM) - White helemt 2 x 19mm black band with 12.5mm separation and black comb 1 x Large impeller with 3mm silver band
Brigade Manager (BM) - White helemt 1 x 38mm black band and black comb role insignia as per original (usually the CFO one)
b) As roles were introduced (from late 1990s they appeared in the Training Strategy Group reports and implementation plans) they REPLACED ranks. So you could not have one with the other. The roles are now in and they do help to remove some of the differentials that occured due to the (apparently anyway) wealth of services. Some had SubOs in charge of multi-pump watches, while others had StnOs - so different pay for the same role. These are now both WM. Your example would only work in some FRS as the rank of the job (the Divisional Commander is not a role it is a job title only) depended on the FRS as did the job tilte. For example we had no Divisional Commanders, we had Head of......., Area Commanders and so on. The roles have given a national description.
c) The different job 'size' is part of the rank-to-role work and there are A and B differentials at all levels from WM to AM. The example you gave is specifically mentioned in the r2r documents. The single pump being WM (A) and SM (A) and the two likely to be WM (B) and SM (B). None of these roles are ranks, whilst they may be the position of certain prior ranks on pay assimilation to role (ONLY for pay purposes) they cannot be related to previous ranks as they are ROLES! The role is the same whether A or B paid and so the role insignia is the same and no difference is taken between, nor is there any development from one to the other.

Role insignia is (supposed) to be only worn on PPE - that is Fire Kit, though most FRS still use it as they did rank markings, indeed many FRS still applyt he old rank markings and all have not yet taken on the role insignia.
c)

Tom Sutton · « **Reply #2 on:** April 01, 2006, 01:54:01 PM »

Thanks fireftrm for your full explaination I will now be able to update my page on Ranks oh...... I mean Roles

Tom Sutton · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2006, 10:23:29 PM »

fireftrm I am in the process of updating my web page but have a couple of suplementary questions.

(a) We are talking about national standards?
(b) The insignia for a Area Manager is there no laurel wreath?
(c) What does PPE stand for? ( Guess - Personal Protection Equipment)

fireftrm · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2006, 02:02:11 AM »

a) Yes
b) Sorry yes there is
c) You are right!

Tom Sutton · « **Reply #5 on:** April 02, 2006, 10:58:03 AM »

Thanks very much I will upload it now.

dave bev · « **Reply #6 on:** April 02, 2006, 10:44:30 PM »

fireftrm - sorry but i dont agree with your explanation - ipds and the role stucture implemented by it could have been implemented against the current (old) rank structure but the decision has been made not too. i think the examples quoted could be utilised and to think that roles will take away the local differences as you state really is an aspiration - i have been involved with quite a few different brigades moving from r2r and i can assure you the differences still exist! more so now that it is recognised by some f&rs's that the vision doesnt give them what they thought they were getting.

london as an example of implementing the examples tom makes, were running ipds under a rank system, although some will question its success. so why do we need roles?

you also forgot to mention the fact that brigade managers are keeping their rank markings (shirt/tunics) - ie aco's dcfos and cfo's (and scottish equivalents)

dave bev

fireftrm · « **Reply #7 on:** April 03, 2006, 09:12:05 AM »

Dave, I agree the principles of IPDS could be acheived whatever the organisational structure. However, the FRS had set the roles as part of the standards setting for the jobs to be assessed/developed against. If different FRS had decided to keep the ranks then the only way these could have successfully fitted to the roles would have been some assimialtion - just like that (but maybe with more thought) as that done for pay purposes. This would have left ranks set against roles and surely woudl have meant some ranked posts having to be be reset to accomodate the correct role? So there would have been little real difference between that and what is (supposedly) happening, except that we could have kept our ranks as such, which I did rather like!

I did say BMs staying as they were - thought he guidance makes clear that it is meant for PPE only! Many FRS are using role insignia at every level though.

The problem you note of the differences still exisitng is entirley due to the lack of proper r2r work, whether through indifference, ineptitude, or a desire to do no work (or dare I suggest a fear of finding that people are actually doing a higher role and will need paying accordingly?) and this does match both employer side and rep bodies (excepting the pay issue! - I know very few union reps who have the slightest knwoledge of how r2r should work, or even know the role maps anyway).

dave bev · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2006, 10:45:18 AM »

as i said - there was no need to remove the rank structure!

most fbu reps were given the opportunity to attend seminars (which are still being run) - i dont see that opportunity being given to senior officers/managers with a responsibility - so i understand why perhaps things are becoming confused. what i woul say however is that there is a contractual requirement for senior officers/managers to to understand the process. fbu reps (and any other tu reps) do their best with what they have!

i am surprised at the number of f&frs who are acknowledging work outside the rolemap without following the agreed process - its not rocket science - but i suppose it makes the appeal process a lot easier for those appealing!

dave bev

fireftrm · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2006, 03:58:27 PM »

I agree that some do their best, but with the majority being Ff there is little incentive for them to be bothered, or so I have found. Ther eis also no real urgency fromt eh rep bodies to tackle the issue of the way that some FRS are going about r2r. It seems that laissez-faire is the main attitude. Rightly, or wrongly, but I can see just that in a large Met nearby where no true work was done and r2r just happened, maybe cynicism is not becoming but there we are.

dave bev · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2006, 07:16:02 PM »

not cynism - realism unfortunately - though of course i would take issue with the comments re fbu reps.

perhaps something might be discussed somewhere in the near future?

dave bev

rips · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2006, 07:26:31 PM »

Fireftrm

would you be talking about us in T&W by any chance?

fireftrm · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2006, 07:39:22 PM »

I couldn't possibly comment.
There is one large met that I can think of where all SMs are SM(B) irrespective of the station size etc. Interestingly they were all ADO before with 1 station and after pay assimilation were on SM(B)........so a lot of discussion on the correct role and sizing went into that one too! Where the evidence came from to determine the role (may have been GM after all) or job size seems unknown by all I have spoken to (mgt and union side)
As to T&W I stand by the first sentence!

Mike Buckley · « **Reply #13 on:** July 05, 2006, 04:18:03 PM »

I have come into this debate a bit late, but the phrase "rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic" comes to mind. I remember when I was giving talks to the public the explaination I used to use was "White Helmets out rank Yellow Helmets and look for the guy with the biggest area of black band on his helmet, he will probably be in charge".

As for the new names I would hate to have to yell "Crew Manager" across the fire ground when all I had to yell was "Sub".

Firewolf · « **Reply #14 on:** July 06, 2006, 09:36:11 AM »

Hey guys

Apologies for my being dumb here Im confused!.

I just visited a certain fire and rescue service and spoke to an ADO.

Unfortunately I didnt know he was an ADO but because he had no rank markings on his undress uniform!.

Is this the way the fire service is going or will there eventually be new rank markings or eppaulettes to identify who everyone is in time?

Cheers :-)

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Author Topic: Rank to role insignia (Read 17009 times)