Fire Alarm Repeater Panels

[Richard Maze]

During a recent Fire Risk Assessment in a block of sheltered dwellings I was informed that the fire alarm repeater panel had been taken out from the vicinity of the wardens apartment/base due to the European Working Time Directive. Has anyone else come across this?

[Chris Houston]

The two issues do not seem to connect, can you explain the logic behind this please?

[Richard Maze]

This is a five storey block of flats used as sheltered dwellings. There is only one warden resident in the building and the issue is that under the Working Time Directive the warden is entitled - indeed required to be not available when not on duty. Thus the repeater panel has been removed.
This is not an issue I have previously encountered hence the query and it is my intention, to recommend the repeater panel to be reinstated or for other wardens to be employed in the premises.

[Chris Houston]

My understanding is that the WTD is based on average hours in a given time, say a month.  

Now, being in the same room as a repeater panel does not constitute work (I have work books and a computer in my room but I am not working unless I am using them).

The warden is surely only working if he is using the panel, this will only happen when there is an activation, which ought to be a very rare occurance.

I have plenty of things in my house that COULD be used for work, but this does not cause my employers any problems, I can't see why the presence of a panel is an issue.

And to answer your question directly: "No."

[hughskid]

I was informed that the fire alarm repeater panel had been taken out from the vicinity of the wardens apartment/base due to the European Working Time Directive.

Maybe this is why fatalities are high in fires in sheltered accommodation. If I were the warden I would want to know as soon as there was an activation or fault on the IP.

If there was an evacuation in the middle of the night would they stay in their bed saying "I've done my hours today, I'm not moving"  Working time directive, what a load of pony. Shouldn't apply to situations regarding Fire Safety.

I think it just goes to prove that some people don’t want to work

[Martin Burford]

interesting comment that fatalities are high in sheltered accommodation.....can you explain where this info comes from.......especially the "high" figure.
Conqueror

[hughskid]

Sorry, high was the wrong word to use. What I meant was when there is a fire in sheltered/elderly accommodation; there are usually more deaths than in a dwelling fire. If the attitude of the staff who work in these buildings is has mentioned by Ramfire then is this a contributing fact? That was the point I was getting at.

Also I'm sure that the B Doc requires sheltered accommodation with a warden to have an IP in the wardens area to alert them to such incidents. (Or maybe it's a monitoring centre?)

If I offended anyone I apologise, that was not my intention. (Unless you’re the warden who jumped on the work time directive bandwagon)

[jokar]

I am not sure what the problem is.  The panel is a repeater and therefore, when the alarm sounds the on duty warden attends the proper panel  The system should be connected to a redcare type system then the Brigade will turn out.  I would be more concerned about the management of the residents, defend in place or evacuation rather than the position of a repeater panel.

[Allen Higginson]

Because wardens (or "Scheme Co-ordinators as they are now called!) only get paid for a basic working week they do not get paid a turn out or retainer fee to be in attedance in the event of a fire alarm activation.More and more are making themselves unavailable at weekends and (in the case of schemes that I look after) the system goes through to the brigade via the helpline when the scheme is "off site" (i.e. - outside Mon - Fri 9 to 5).So it is pointless having a repeater in their accommodation if they are not there or if the guidlines of their employer states that they are not to put themselves at risk in the event of an activation.
The bottom line is that the employers have expected these people to do more and more for nowt and are now reaping what they have sown (many schemes now have no on site warden as they have decided to live off-site).I know I wouldn't work for what amounts to £14,500 per year (taking into account the accommodation which,incidently,is only yours while you work there meaning once you retire or leave you're on a sticky wicket!) for a 40 hour week which turns out to be potentially more than double tat when Mrs Smith knocks on your door on a Sat night or Sun morning to say her tellys broke or similar!
Unfortunately,the flip side of this is that there is no responsible person on site to reset the firs alarm once the brigade has attended and so I get the call to go reset what is clearly a genuine false alarm.

[Chris Houston]

Because wardens (or "Scheme Co-ordinators as they are now called!) only get paid for a basic working week they do not get paid a turn out or retainer fee to be in attedance in the event of a fire alarm activation.More and more are making themselves unavailable at weekends and (in the case of schemes that I look after) the system goes through to the brigade via the helpline when the scheme is "off site" (i.e. - outside Mon - Fri 9 to 5).So it is pointless having a repeater in their accommodation if they are not there or if the guidlines of their employer states that they are not to put themselves at risk in the event of an activation.
The bottom line is that the employers have expected these people to do more and more for nowt and are now reaping what they have sown (many schemes now have no on site warden as they have decided to live off-site).I know I wouldn't work for what amounts to £14,500 per year (taking into account the accommodation which,incidently,is only yours while you work there meaning once you retire or leave you're on a sticky wicket!) for a 40 hour week which turns out to be potentially more than double tat when Mrs Smith knocks on your door on a Sat night or Sun morning to say her tellys broke or similar!
Unfortunately,the flip side of this is that there is no responsible person on site to reset the firs alarm once the brigade has attended and so I get the call to go reset what is clearly a genuine false alarm.

Buzzard, this may explain why the wardens do not like having the panel in their flat, but does not appear to address the issue of the Working Time Directive, which I think is a red herring.

[Graeme]

i have one site where the warden has decided to go away and put the system onto "off site" without telling me.
ened up with the Local friendly FB twice in attendance while i was doing routine testing.

[val]

I suppose this means that all the work done on 'initial stay put' schemes is out the window???

[Allen Higginson]

Because wardens (or "Scheme Co-ordinators as they are now called!) only get paid for a basic working week they do not get paid a turn out or retainer fee to be in attedance in the event of a fire alarm activation.More and more are making themselves unavailable at weekends and (in the case of schemes that I look after) the system goes through to the brigade via the helpline when the scheme is "off site" (i.e. - outside Mon - Fri 9 to 5).So it is pointless having a repeater in their accommodation if they are not there or if the guidlines of their employer states that they are not to put themselves at risk in the event of an activation.
The bottom line is that the employers have expected these people to do more and more for nowt and are now reaping what they have sown (many schemes now have no on site warden as they have decided to live off-site).I know I wouldn't work for what amounts to £14,500 per year (taking into account the accommodation which,incidently,is only yours while you work there meaning once you retire or leave you're on a sticky wicket!) for a 40 hour week which turns out to be potentially more than double tat when Mrs Smith knocks on your door on a Sat night or Sun morning to say her tellys broke or similar!
Unfortunately,the flip side of this is that there is no responsible person on site to reset the firs alarm once the brigade has attended and so I get the call to go reset what is clearly a genuine false alarm.

Buzzard, this may explain why the wardens do not like having the panel in their flat, but does not appear to address the issue of the Working Time Directive, which I think is a red herring.

I think it all comes down to being available on call and being "potentially" at work when on call.This was a case raised by (I think) community nurses who covered an out of hours rota and reckoned that they should be paid an appropriate hourly rate for doing so.I provide on-call every other week at what works out to be little over 69 pence per hour. It boils down to (and depends on where you are sitting!) whether you consider being available for work as being at work.

[Chris Houston]

Because wardens (or "Scheme Co-ordinators as they are now called!) only get paid for a basic working week they do not get paid a turn out or retainer fee to be in attedance in the event of a fire alarm activation.More and more are making themselves unavailable at weekends and (in the case of schemes that I look after) the system goes through to the brigade via the helpline when the scheme is "off site" (i.e. - outside Mon - Fri 9 to 5).So it is pointless having a repeater in their accommodation if they are not there or if the guidlines of their employer states that they are not to put themselves at risk in the event of an activation.
The bottom line is that the employers have expected these people to do more and more for nowt and are now reaping what they have sown (many schemes now have no on site warden as they have decided to live off-site).I know I wouldn't work for what amounts to £14,500 per year (taking into account the accommodation which,incidently,is only yours while you work there meaning once you retire or leave you're on a sticky wicket!) for a 40 hour week which turns out to be potentially more than double tat when Mrs Smith knocks on your door on a Sat night or Sun morning to say her tellys broke or similar!
Unfortunately,the flip side of this is that there is no responsible person on site to reset the firs alarm once the brigade has attended and so I get the call to go reset what is clearly a genuine false alarm.

Buzzard, this may explain why the wardens do not like having the panel in their flat, but does not appear to address the issue of the Working Time Directive, which I think is a red herring.

I think it all comes down to being available on call and being "potentially" at work when on call.This was a case raised by (I think) community nurses who covered an out of hours rota and reckoned that they should be paid an appropriate hourly rate for doing so.I provide on-call every other week at what works out to be little over 69 pence per hour. It boils down to (and depends on where you are sitting!) whether you consider being available for work as being at work.

I am on call (with the Red Cross) as we speak, but I am not working, I am watching TV, browsing the internet and pottering about my house.  I also have work equipment from my full time employers including a PC that is switched on and a company phone (which could in theory ring anytime) but as it isn't ringing, I'm not working.  I don't see any difference between sitting next a fire alarm panel that is not in alarm/fault.  I think this may be a valid discussion between employers and employees, but not a Working Time Directive issue.

[Allen Higginson]

Agreed that it is a tenuous link to equate the WTD with being on call but (1) The Red Cross is voluntary (2) It would appear that you consider it unlikely that you will be called outside hours whereas it is likely in my case, so I don't consider it the same that I (admittedly awaiting) could get a call from any one of 300 fire alarm panels every other week and that I can't as much go for a constitutional without the phone ringing!It goes with the territory and the answer is to move to another line of work (which I am doing at present) but it isunderpaid when you take into account the restrictions involved.
However,this has nowt to do with repeater panels in wardens flats!!