Enforcement of County Council Premises by County Council FRS

[crmd259]

Can anyone help!

As a county council Service how would (god forbid) we go about prosecuting a Fire Safety issue, if the premises in question was a county council premises.

The county council is the enforcing authority, therefore the county legal department would be prosecuting as well as defending!!!!

This issue is not new however it seems to have never been addressed in the past.

I have considered the HSE as an alternative however they are not the enforcing authority for fire safety.

Also with the iminent demise of the HMFSI who else can be delegated powers under the RR(FS)O?

My interpretation of the order is that inspectors can be appointed but only in certain circumstances.

I would appreciate advice from other CC Fire and Rescue Services if they have looked at it, or have i just disturbed the proverbial nest of hornets?

cheers

[wee brian]

I,ve been a Local Authority BCO. some boroughs dont even alow BCOs to check their work they just use the in house surveyor to certify compliance.

It doesnt work very well. Al you can do is send snotty memos (emails these days) to each other.

[kurnal]

Why pick on the poor old County Councils?
I reckon the lowest standards are to be found in crown property if my area is anything to go by. And of course Regina is above the law and all the minions hide beneath the Royal petticoat so they can spend the money for health on safety on gold plated bean counters.
I thought that legally many fire authorities are now a seperate entity from the  county council especially where combined authorities are set up?

[AnthonyB]

I think standards vary around the country - many former 'crown' bodies that are now Govt agencies are rapidly catching up & exceeding standards - they tend to have some odd ideas, especially with procedures, but are mostly pro-active.

Worst offenders I've encountered are city councils, especially my local one & some of the worst non competent maintenance by the FRS service staff in these premises!

[crmd259]

Thanks for the above, with ref to your comment kurnal.

I thought that legally many fire authorities are now a seperate entity from the  county council especially where combined authorities are set up?

You are correct where combined authoritys are concerned, however there are i believe 12 County council services left.

I am still no wiser!!!

Anyone else?

[Mike Buckley]

The combined authorities may be a seperate entity from the local authorities, however the members of the Fire Authority tend to be Councillors from the local authorities, and the local authorities pay the Fire Authority.

Catch 22 lives!!

[fred]

I think the likelihood of a conflict of this nature happening in the future is about the same as it was in the past - zero - though I can recall a particularly zealous petroleum officer who used to send himself nasty letters if the organsiation failed to renew their petroluem licence!!!

If you can persuade your Property Department that they are responsible for carrying out the fire risk assessments of the premises (not the fire safety department) you should be able to resolve any diferences of opionion without recourse to the courts.

[jokar]

I have just received the latest version of the enforcers guide, it is much better.  They make the point that individuals can be enforced against, wrong grammar I know, but an out for the CC.  Make it someones job and then take them to task as an individual, job done.

[Firewolf]

In my experience Fire Authorities are wary of taking other enforcing authorities or councils to court, but I believe it has happened in the past (cant quite remember who and what was involved unfortunately)

But where the enforcing authority self governs its own premsies as it were then there can be differing standards.

On the whole I think that most councils nowadays play ball. They know full well that if they did not comply with current regulations or applied lesser standards to their own property and word got out there would be outrage from the Private sector.

There can not be double standards - what goes for the private sector must also apply to the public sector. I accept however that some authorities are more leaniant towards other enforcing bodies and / or local or unitary councils.

With regard to a council taking itself to court, I'm not sure how that stands legally
but can't see how it would in theory be any different to taking a private body to court.

In the real world I guess it wouldnt happen ie the Cheif Exec of the Council may use his or her rank and 'political' clout to prevent one council dept taking another to court etc!

[wee brian]

As I said before. As a BCO I found some naughty goings on by another department of the same authority.

I told my boss - he wrote a stiff memo - it got sorted.

You can't prosecute yourself.

[kurnal]

Is it likely that an individual may be charged with an offence without the employer or body corporate also being charged with a parallel offence? Thinking of case law relating to general Health and Safety rather than fire.

[crmd259]

Thanks for all your posts, you have all reinforced my own thoughts.

My greatest concern is what would happen if there was a fire in a cc premises where someone dies or is injured, then on post fire audit one of our/the fire authority (in this case the CC)'s inspectors finds that the fire was a case of negligence, (Poor fire risk assessment etc), then as the enforcing authority in any other case we would prosecute, but aahhh haaa we cant prosecute ourselves, and the thought of prosecuting an individual who may be a senior council official (responsible person) politically doesnt bear thinking about.....

In this case could the HSE take the case as a breach of HASAWA ? even though it was a fire?

Keep the good advice flowing people, really getting somewhere now i think!!!

[kurnal]

A fire that stops the business trading for >24 hrs is reportable under RIDDOR.
This would bring the matter to the attention of the HSE (in this case the Environmental Health Officers) and if somebody dies, they are more likely to consider a charge of corporate manslaughter than a breach of H&S legislation ( because the potential penalty under H&S is a max of 2 yrs in prison.) Recent typical case law- the Kendal railway accident where 4 workers were killed by a runaway truck- the Director of the company providing the truck jailed for 9 years and his employee for two years (for following his bosses instruction to disguise a brake fault.)

Interestingly last year the Derby City Council education department  and a school headteacher were prosecuted by the Derby City Council Environmental Health Department following an asbestos incident at a city council school. I remember a fine of about £20k. The details will probably be available through BBC news website- it was a junior school in littleover Derby if I recall.

Finally dont forget that in the example given CSCI would have a role to play because they enforce the National Care Standards - one of which is to ensure he health safety and welfare of the persons for whom they care.

I suppose the conclusion is that theres more than one way to skin a cat.

[kurnal]

Looks like my memory is playing tricks with me again- heres a link to the school news story i mentioned above. It seems the HSE prosecuted the council- although normally the city environmental health officers would have been responsible for enforcement.  Rather reinforces your point crmd259 cos theres no formal mechanism in the RRO for the HSE to step in on fire issues?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/4530867.stm

[crmd259]

Cheers Kurnal, I will check out the link!